Friday, July 29, 2005

Frist on the Fritz
...oops, what will the ECBoys do now?

I know that this could be a Mulligan Monday entry, but it was too important to wait the weekend.

Matt Drudge reported yesterday that Senate Republican leader, Bill Frist, has decided to support a bill to expand federal financing for embryonic stem cell research in a decided break with President Bush (that giant sucking sound you're hearing is Dobson and company on a conference call trying to figure out what in the Sam Hill just happened). Frist's actions could force a confrontation with the White House, which is threatening to veto the measure. "While human embryonic stem cell research is still at a very early stage, the limitations put in place in 2001 will, over time, slow our ability to bring potential new treatments for certain diseases," Senator Frist says. "Therefore, I believe the president's policy should be modified."

This "sea change" will almost certainly affect Mr. Frist's political future. His breaking with President Bush on this issue is Frist's way of being "his own man" and demostrating independent leadership with his eyes possibly on the Presidency for 2008. But supporting an expansion of this policy will put him at most certain odds with evangelical conservative Christians, whose support he will desperately need to garner the Republican nomination. In "Schwarzenegger like" fashion, this purposed decision could help him win support among centrists. Question: Is Frist beginning to "morph into a conservative moderate" before our very eyes? Only time will tell.

"I am pro-life," arguing that he can reconcile his support for the science with his own "Christian" faith. "I believe human life begins at conception." But at the same time, he says, "I also believe that embryonic stem cell research should be encouraged and supported." Note: no biblical support or Romanist dogma was given to back his convictions.

The timing of the Senator's move on this is quite significant. Frist is a Romanist who spoke at Justice Sunday 1 via a pre-recorded message, but is not scheduled to be one of the speakers for JS2 (August 14th, Sunday evening, 6pm, Two Rivers Baptist Church, Nashville, TN). However, he has been praised and championed by the Fab Four of ECB (Dobson, Mohler, Land and Colson) and is a key voice for the ECBoys on the hill. This, however, could change everything.

With Roe v. Wade considered to be a political plumbline for Supreme Court appointees by the White House and stem cell research a litmus test for conservative family values (thought by many to be another form of ending human life by pro-life advocates including myself) is not upheld by political conservatives, it could have a polarizing effect within the Republican Party. Do the ECB Fab Four still find unanimity with their "Washington ally" now that he’s changed his position on this issue and is no longer "in-sync" - consistent with their pro-life convictions? The ironic and interesting thing is now Senator Frist must be co-belligerent against the co-belligerents he once was co-belligerent with. Fun isn't it? Will FOTF begin a "recovery program" for former ECBers who have defected on a key point of evangelical backed valued-legislation? How will they confront this with Frist and not alienate him on other issues? Can anyone say, "Potomac two-step?"

Once again folks, when someone’s cultural burden for society, though noble, is played out by vacillating political ethics rather than immutable biblical ones, then this what you get. The good Senator from my home state is pro-life, believes that life begins at conception, but is now for stem cell research violating the core of those beliefs and moral ethics. What a schizophrenic time we live in (I think the clinical diagnosis is called... postmodernism). Is that Dobson I hear humming this morning "Those boots are made for walking...?" (Read Psalm 139:13-17 today; it's God's view on this issue.)

The "Evangelical Spin" stops here...
Campi

THIS JUST IN - Here is Tony Perkin's of the FRC's (Family Research Council) response to Senator's Frist support for embryonic stem cell research. Tony Perkins gives a very solid plea for Mr. Frist to change his thinking to "good science, good ethics, and good public policy." Tony has proven himself very credible and fair of his treatment on many issues and I commend his column and subsequent links to you.

46 comments:

Breuss Wane said...

> Is that Dobson I hear humming >this morning "Those boots are >made for walking...?"


Probably because he's getting ready to launch a boycott against one of the world's most famous "PK's". :-)

http://www.denverpost.com/portlet/article/html/fragments/print_article.jsp?article=2894757

Sparks said...

The Repubican controlled Senate, House of Representatives and White House cannot accomplish anything because they seem to be too intent on pursuing their own individual agendas.

I'm considering becoming an Independent because of the irresponsible behavior of the Senate and House Republicans. I don't want to be aligned with any of them.

Tony Brooks said...
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Tony Brooks said...

Steve,

Awesome blog, and even greater to know that someone of your status and achievements in life has decided to Blog. It makes me feel good to know that this is a great ministry, and everyone should do this.

I place my faith in the Heavenly Father that he will guide and lead the leaders of this nation to make the right decisions.

It hurts when you loose someone in the Senate, or theyd ecide to change their minds. But God will lead us, and them.

Thanks again Steve for Blogging, and inspiring us all to continue with this great outreach tool.

God Bless.
Tony

Jus Divinum said...

http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2005/07/civics-101.html

Breuss Wane said...

jus divinum wrote:
>http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2005/07/>civics-101.html

Yeah, whatever.

SJ Camp said...

Jus:

Good to see you back on the "COT" blog.
Steve
(1 Tim. 4:12-16)

SJ Camp said...

Tony, Breuss and Jay:

All profitable thoughts here.

-Independent is good--it is disheartening these days in political leadership.

-God is sovereign over the affairs of His world ordering them to His own pleasure and purpose. That is our hope and though it does no abrogate us of our duty as well, how comforting to rest in the KING of all kings.

-Chad, you have the gift of saying much in just a few key words... "yeah, whatever." Sums up my thoughts perfectly.

"And our money says in God we trust
But its against the law to pray in schools
You say we beat the Russians to the moon
And I say you starved your children to do it

You say all men are equal, all men are brothers
Then why are the rich more equal than others
Don't ask me for the answers I've only got one
That a man leaves his darkness when he follows the Son!"


I agree.
Campi

"The Great American Novel" - Lyric by Larry Norman - (1972)

Bhedr said...
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Breuss Wane said...

Doesn't Co-Bee whine, I mean play, for the Lakers?

Matthew2323 said...

Brothers,

True the 'diablogue' post was poorly written and misinformed but please be mindful of your words. I realize there is a bit of jest and informality to a blog and its comments but we must not "sit in the seat of scoffers" when disagreeing. We are brothers in the Lord.

Scorn and mockery are not acceptable amongst family members. My heart would be greived if my children spoke, "yeah, whatever" to one another.

If I have misjudged your thoughts and intentions, I do apologize. Jesus warned we will be judged for "EVERY idle word" so I only wish to suggest a little caution.

May the grace of the Lord be with you all!

Bhedr said...
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Breuss Wane said...

matthew2323 wrote:
>we must not "sit in the seat of >scoffers" when disagreeing.

I must politely disagree. Theonomy and the Bahnsenian sympathies are *so* unbiblical (walking by sight, rather than faith), the theology deserves nothing but scorn and derision.

It's not about our brothers. It's about the theonomically-inclined nonsense being espoused. To answer it is a waste of Christ-given time. IMHO.

Bhedr said...
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Breuss Wane said...

I get the distinct impression that the Co-Bees are going to be providing fodder for Mulligan Monday quite frequently. :-)

steve said...

There must be two different Chad Bressons in the world. There’s the Chad who says that “what our nation allowed to happen to his daughter speaks volumes about where our society is not, including evangelicals,” and then there’s the Chad who says that “theonomy…deserves nothing but scorn and derision.”

One Chad denounces those who pulled the plug while the other Chad denounces those who tried to keep her alive. Good to know that Steve and his allies are distinguished by such moral clarity.

Jeremy Weaver said...

I like you Chad. Personal attacks come only when your opponent knows that they have been beaten.

Jus Divinum said...

In case anyone is wondering, Steve Hays is referring to the following:

http://breusswane.blogspot.com/2005/07/satisfying-curious.html

2Tal said...

Albert Mohler says in the "Foundations for Political Action" articles in Tabletalk Magazine (R.C. Sproul Ligonier Ministries), "Loving our neighbors for the sake of our love for God is the most profound political philosophy.. As Christians, we do not engage in political action becuase we believe the conceit that politics is all-important, but neither do believe the lie that politics is inconsequential."

Breuss Wane said...

Like I said, the best answer to folly is no answer.

SJ Camp said...

I like that Mohler quote... well done.

..."Loving our neighbors for the sake of our love for God is the most profound political philosophy."...

I would only clarify that the second cmmandment is not "profound political philosophy" - but the genuine fruit of regeneration displayed in Christlikeness. Biblical love is undeserved; unmerited; unfaililng; self-sacrificial and unreciprocated. It is a work of the grace of our Lord that develops the depth of that kind of "otherworldly" love in us to His glory (1 John 3:1; Eph. 5:2; Matt. 5:40-47).

Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young said, "love the one you're with." The Beatles said, "all you need is love" and then they broke up (larry norman's line). The Pharisees say, "I'll love you if you love me." Satan says, "love yourself." Jesus says, "love your enemies" and "love your neighbor as yourself."

All to say... Al is a godly man and I appreciate what he is implying in his words. I am so grateful that he is my brother in the Lord. I have learned much from him and continue to do so. And though we differ greatly on the ECB issue right now, that has not diminished my love for him.

Thank you again for sharing that quote... Keep 'em coming.

Yours for the Master's use,
Steve

PS - In all our discussions I echo the wisdom of my dear friend Phil Johnson... "don't feed the trolls."

Bhedr said...
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Bhedr said...
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Bhedr said...
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Shawn L said...

Steve I have to disagree with the way you talk about other Christians in this blog. I wonder what actual edifying thing you have to say to FOTF or others if they read this. They would definitely not grow in understanding of what you are saying, but be more defensive and less willing to read the scriptures with you on the topic. Though I agree with you that they are focusing on politics more than the gospel to change society.

To me it sounded more like personal attacks.

Please don't get me wrong, this is me from a guy who has listened to you preach and sing for 15 years and has been encouraged in Lord from you for years. Plus you have had a dramatic impact on me since Abandoned to God by leading me to good solid bible teaching in your songs.

God encourages me daily to be more and more excited and captivated with Scripture with friends and prophetic voices like you.

Well anyway, I just wanted to say how is this particular post helped those who are in the FOTF or something else come to a more biblical view. To me it was a bit rude for no clear reason or help for others.

Breuss Wane said...

Shawn wrote:
>To me it sounded more like personal >attacks.

I understand your concerns. But have you listened to FOTF lately? One of the programs this week was nothing but a rip session on anyone standing in the way of the John Roberts nomination. Their tone was uncalled for.

They've set themselves up for justified rebuke... and Steve's made it fun along the way, IMHO.

Bhedr said...
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Jus Divinum said...

Shawn Lynes wrote:

Steve I have to disagree with the way you talk about other Christians in this blog. I wonder what actual edifying thing you have to say to FOTF or others if they read this.

It's worse than that, actually. It's positively chilling when a conservative, evangelical Christian finds the support of a Senate leader for the destruction of unborn human life an occasion for glee, and public mocking of his brothers in Christ.

Bhedr said...
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Breuss Wane said...

jus divinum wrote:
>an occasion for glee, and public >mocking of his brothers in Christ.

Quite frankly, this is dishonest, and one more reason *why* some arguments/theological paradigms are better left unengaged.

Bhedr said...
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Bhedr said...

or a nexus in the space time continuum

littlegal_66 said...

Ah, yes, the Honorable Dr. Frist. I'm not really surprised by his one-eighty.....I did vote for the senator, but I'm not really surprised by this story. What do you do? I researched, and I voted for whom I thought would do the best job as my representative--then, I put it in God's hands--He has the final say, anyway, right?

As for the trolls lurking in the shadows, I'll address them one time, and I won't engage them anymore henceforth. This reader did not find the article rude, interpret it as a personal attack, or a public mocking of Christian brothers. Steve was only reflecting on what the reaction to this news could be from the ECB crowd. This is merely Steve Camp in his purest form, folks.

Blog on, Campi, Blog on!

Jus Divinum said...

I wrote:

an occasion for glee, and public mocking of his brothers in Christ.

And Breuss Wane said:

Quite frankly, this is dishonest, and one more reason *why* some arguments/theological paradigms are better left unengaged.

Are you kidding? Here is Mr. Camp's gleeful public mocking of his brothers in Christ:

"...oops, what will the ECBoys do now?"

"(that giant sucking sound you're hearing is Dobson and company on a conference call trying to figure out what in the Sam Hill just happened)."

"the ECB Fab Four..."

"Fun isn't it? Will FOTF begin a 'recovery program' for former ECBers who have defected on a key point of evangelical backed valued-legislation? How will they confront this with Frist and not alienate him on other issues? Can anyone say, 'Potomac two-step?'"

"Is that Dobson I hear humming this morning "Those boots are made for walking...?'"

I rest my case. Can you _honestly_ say that Mr. Camp is not openly mocking his fellow Christians, and conveying he's having a good time doing it? Mr. Camp is a great Christian, and an accomplished servant of the Lord, but surely your loyalty is not _that_ blind, is it?

Jus Divinum said...

Brian,

I don't recognize myself in your remarks.

In what way do I "gleefully and joyfully openly embrace the whore of Revelation and defend those who do"?

In what way do I "defend this institution [Roman Catholicism] and bring her into [my] house"?

Could you please cite a single comment of mine on this blog (or any other, for that matter) which would in any way support your claims above?

Thanks.

Breuss Wane said...

jus divinum wrote:
>Can you _honestly_ say that Mr. >Camp is not openly mocking his >fellow Christians

Satirical rhetoric is out of bounds *within* the kingdom? I think not.

> and conveying he's having a good >time doing it?

Absolutely not, and this is where your comments are dishonest. Nowhere has Steve suggested he's glad about Frist's 180. In fact, Steve endorsed both Al Mohler's and Tony Perkins' (FOTF-Washington) comments about Frist. The selectivity on which the comments are based renders the critique false and misleading.

Bhedr said...
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SJ Camp said...

The sheer hypocrisy of the ECB movement is typified in what happened with Frist last week. Dobson and company had courted Frist on several key "moral, family values, prolife issues"; solicited him for public support and comment (JS1); and counted on him to influence other Washington constituents on those same convctions for legislative strength in changing policy. Then he flip/flopped. When someone changes positions dramatically as he did (he also asked for federal funding for his "new" position) that has profound implications on Party affiliations and ECB directly. I think that some ECBers now know "Frist-hand" that the "tie that binds" their allies run only "potomoc" deep. Simply put... they (ECB) got stung.

This demonstrates perfectly that when unity is rooted foundationally in political posturing as opposed to biblical certainty, this kind of thing is to be expected--and will happen again. Hopefully, this will serve as a wake up call for the ECB movement to primarily address issues in the future with a proper mandate: biblically; and by proper means: the local church.

One final comment: Biblical truth, by its very nature is: exclusive and immutable; it is not of the moment; and rooted in eternity (Psalm 119:89). The political reality is: of the moment; based upon focus groups and polling; and is dependent upon personal electable viability. Politics is the art of compromise; biblical Christianity is to deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow Him.

What is the answer for this dilemma? "Evangelical Biblical Engagement (EBE)..." This will be addressed in future posts.

Until then, take comfort: Jesus reigns as King now; He is sovereign over all His creatures; the governments are subject to His purposes and pleasure; the kingdom of God is already and not yet... and the ECB movement is still unbiblical.

Having more fun than a Reformed Baptist should be allowed...

Yours for the Master's use,
Steve
2 Tim. 3:16-17

SJ Camp said...

Let me say something here that I feel is important and needful. All comments are welcomed on this blog (within the rules stated) and are appreciated, even if I disagree with some of them and some of you with me. I find it refreshing and necessary.

Let's stay on issue, keep Christ and His glory first in all these discussions, stay teachable and may we encourage each other by the truth of Scripture. Poke fun at me with irreverent sarcasm—I don’t mind it, but show some deference too. And have some fun doing it. (I.E. - Brian I appreciate your words of caution and for giving me a "mulligan.")

I am thrilled at the dialogue and the response so far with this blog. I am honored to be in the lively art of doctrinal/theological/biblical conversation with each of you. This is so good for Christians to engage and should be happening more within the body of Christ. (I can think of a few Seminaries that would benefit from such dialogue). I don’t play politics and don’t respect those that do either. I play hardball when it comes to the Lord and His Word. When the iron strikes the iron - sometimes the sparks will fly. It's OK... Bring it on! But don’t go personal apart from the issues—those kinds of comments will be deleted immediately.

As always, you may further opine, bloviate and vent to your hearts content to me by email (click on the A1Mail icon near the top of the blog).

Take Heaven by Storm...
Steve
Acts 20:24

Bhedr said...
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Jus Divinum said...

Brian,

There's nothing to forgive here, Brian, so everything is OK :-)

I've already repeatedly made my case that since cooperative political efforts do not involve an appeal to Roman Catholic soteriology (or any other kind of soteriology), then they don't involve an endorsement or approval of said soteriology. Indeed, this applies to cooperative endeavors more generally throughout society. I think both Dobson and Colson are wrong to recognize Roman Catholics as part of the church, but I don't see how their theological defects undermine the legitimacy of political cooperation. (All that to say, I'm not a fundamentalist who believes in secondary and tertiary separation.) I'm also on record that Justice Sunday was a mistake, and if JSII is being billed as a worship service, then _that's_ a grave mistake as well. I agree with you that there is "no hope in the political arena" if you mean the production of spiritual and eternal goods. But I don't believe those are the only kinds of goods we're allowed to pursue in life, either individually or in cooperation with others.

But there's no sense in repeating my arguments all over again, so I'll just leave it there.

Jus Divinum said...

Mr. Camp wrote:

The sheer hypocrisy of the ECB movement is typified in what happened with Frist last week. Dobson and company had courted Frist on several key "moral, family values, prolife issues"; solicited him for public support and comment (JS1); and counted on him to influence other Washington constituents on those same convctions for legislative strength in changing policy. Then he flip/flopped. When someone changes positions dramatically as he did (he also asked for federal funding for his "new" position) that has profound implications on Party affiliations and ECB directly. I think that some ECBers now know "Frist-hand" that the "tie that binds" their allies run only "potomoc" deep. Simply put... they (ECB) got stung.

Perhaps I'm dense, but is there anything in the above paragraph that exposes "the sheer hypocrisy of the ECB movement"? Where, exactly, is the hypocrisy in question? Can anyone explain this to me?

Perhaps if Dobson et al had originally said, "We'll support Frist no matter what he says or does at any future point in time," there might be a case for hypocrisy in their current lack of support for him. (After all, it's always hypocritical to make a promise and then break it.) But of course they made no such promise. Where then is the hypocrisy in this episode?

Bhedr said...
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2Tal said...

Well this blog has probably pretty much had it's run. But just in case, would like to oblogerate a little. I hope I might receive pardon for going beyond this article alone and touch on the theme of the issue here.

To me, Jus seems more on track here. There is nothing wrong with standing up for what is right. And contrary to some of what Mr. Camp has seemed to imply, I do believe legislation is extremely important as far as promoting or discouraging right and wrong goes and God does care. It doesn't change hearts or depravity (who ever said it does?) but as Calvin states it can certainly thwart evil actions.

I've mentioned scriptures about defending the rights of the weak and saving people from the slaughter that I have yet to see repudiated.

Besides, "we are the people". Anyone who disagrees with this form of democracy can...well..anyway moving on...

. To separate cultural moral issues from righteousness and the gospel seems to be a false dichotomy. If liberals are offended by our stance against abortion and other moral issues then they will also be offended by the gospel because the gospel calls sin sin. This is the only way sin can be defined is by engaging these very cultural issues.

As far as the Catholics are concerned, of course I don't agree with their doctrine. But then again I don't agree with YWAM teaching Finney's Governmental view of the atonement which is a flat out denial of the Satisfaction or Substitutionary view. Ketih Green was heavily involved with YWAM and it's Finneyist influence yet we brush it off as not a big deal. Certainly not as big a deal as Catholicism who say faith + works = eternal life. I love Keith Green and his music but facts and facts here. Wesley is considered orthodox and yet he does not believe in eternal security. In my view anyone who is not a Calvinist ultimately trusts in himself to contribute some necessary addtion (i.e. faith or works)to be saved apart from the Triune work of God. So to me Catholicism, though admittedly more obvious, is nevertheless the same as the rest. Therefore if we refuse to condemn the rest we cannot condemn the Catholics.

Futhermore, this is not evangelism. I agree with Camp that the gospel is waht ultimately matters but that does not mean striving for that which is right and opposing that which is wrong is not a good thing. It just isn;t good enough. I agree with Mr. Camp in many regards here however. Catholics should be not behind Protestant pulpits and the gospel should be our overarching agenda. I agree this is often ignored in political activism and I am grateful Steve is willing to shed some light here. But political activism doesn't have to be devoid of the gospel. How many people are WE telling to "believe on the Lord Jesus for forgiveness of sin"? I enjoy pointing the finger as much as anyone else but, it's like they say. "For every one pointing finger there are at least three pointing back."

Bhedr said...

Lord please come quickly we don't know what were doing. Can I get an Amen?

Bhedr said...
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