Thursday, November 06, 2008

THE REBIRTH OF PRINCIPLED OPPOSITION
...honoring elected officials doesn't mean we cannot challenge them, oppose them, or debate them

by Rush Limbaugh
"In America today, the sun seems to be shining a little brighter; the birds are chirping happier melodies. The smell of spring has displaced Old Man Winter. In fact, winter will not come this year; its cold, harsh winds won't chill the souls of men (or women).

The shackles of the past -- which for so long have bound too many of us -- have been shaken loose. And the process of rebuilding the conservative movement has begun. This is the rebirth of principled opposition. An opposition rooted in conviction; not opposition for opposition's sake, or political expedience.

The road will be steep, but I know as a people we will get there:
•Can we oppose the idea that confiscatory taxation produces prosperity, when in fact it punishes economic growth? Yes, we can!
•Can we oppose the notion that our national greatness is derived from an ever-growing government -- instead of the freedom from government our Founders envisioned? Yes, we can!
•Can we oppose the belief that one's earnings must be redistributed for the false promise of fairness? Yes, we can!
•Can we oppose the belief that it is immoral to secure our own borders, or defend ourselves from terrorists intent on destroying us? Yes, we can!
Can we do all that and more? [protecting the rights of unborn children; defending the Defense of Marriage Act; guarding our first and second amendment rights; etc.] Yes, we can! 

Because now it is plain for one and all to see: taking the moderate path of appeasement leads to abysmal defeat.

Conservatives are free at last! Thank God Almighty, we're free at last -- to seek the mountaintop!"

113 comments:

Stan McCullars said...

Sign me up!

Michele Rayburn said...

On moral issues, we can just refuse to participate if they make the immoral legal.

On other issues, we can still have our voice heard, and oppose high taxes etc. while we still have our freedom of speech to do that.

But there may come a time when our voice will not be allowed to be heard regarding our basic freedoms under the Constitution.

I know that's what Rush is concerned about, if they try to institute the so-called Fairness Doctrine again. So, I think he will be doubling his efforts to educate people about Conservatism while there is still time.

Humberto said...

There's something most people in this country are not getting. This was not an election. It was a revolution.
I am an american citizen, but I'm part of a diaspora of about two and a half million political refugees that fled out of our country, with more than a million heading towards the US, starting in the 60's. Scars run deep and we never forgot the reasons why we are here instead of there. Recently, we've seen those reasons catch up to us. We're seeing with anxiety the beginning of an old story we know by heart.
I recognize the initiatives Obama has spoken of and which he plans to move forward soon. I recognize the rhetoric, the style of campaigning, and the results among the masses. The things he has 'preached' are straight out of Marx's "Communist Manifesto". And his initiatives, already debated in public, are in reality drastic steps away from a democracy but hidden behind fancy positive words. In fact, Steve, one of the things on the list you posted today, is the very same thing invented by communist countries to keep it's population under watch and control. It has no other use.
This is not obvious yet. In fact I understand it seems impossible. It was not obvious to us 50 years ago until it was too late. At the time, my old country was the richest on earth. Now it is at par with Haiti. And everything started with phrases such as "help for the poor" and "social fairness" and "citizen volunteering".
As for the church though, it has been a different story. It was a church with much freedom, now it is a church that has thrived under heavy persecution. Taxed but purified, built with countless beautiful testimonies of people that have lost everything for the sake of Jesus.
I could be wrong, but I doubt it. I've lived it in my own country, and I also lived it in Europe when socialism got underway. Folks, this process is a carbon copy of what I and my family experienced twice already. The US has turned a corner and most likely there will be no return. Freedom is actually quite fragile. This I personally know.
But there's a happy note in all of this. If everything happens the way it looks some years down the road, it will mean the awakening of the church, and the purification of it. Persecution will come in the long run, and when it does, our worst fear today, which is the loss of material things, will be shaken and the church will grab hold of God's promises and faith like it hasn't done in centuries. Then there will be no doubt who is King.

BlueDeacon said...

At times like these I'm reminded of the words of our LORD: "Do to others as you would have them do to you." And by that, I don't think He meant "do to others before they do to you."

What I'm already beginning to see in the opposition to Barack Obama is a sense of envy, which will lead to resentment and, eventually, hate because it has a sense of entitlement (and falsely accuses its opponents of the same). I saw this 16 years ago, when Bill Clinton became president and some of the very same things were being said about him; conservative activists even tried to destroy him using the media campaign rife with unfounded rumors and eventually a trumped-up impeachment charge that he eventually beat because it was based on flimsy evidence that, it turned out, was gathered illegally. The person, who to my knowledge is not a Bible-believing Christian, who wrote this commentary played a large part in that highly immoral campaign, so why is he being quoted on an overtly Christian website except for ideological purposes? If you think God will bless that, you have another thing coming.

You see, we Christians are willing to fight for our "freedom" but not so much for opportunity for those who don't have the same. That is justice according to the Scriptures, not "socialism."

BTW, I read "The Communist Manefesto" 25 years ago, and parts of it came straight out of the Minor Prophets! Criticize Karl Marx if you will for rejecting spirituality, but he did get a lot of things right and we ignore that at our peril. And if you want to talk about Communism, keep in mind that Lenin was very Machiavellian in his approach -- "the ends justify the means." The Christian, however, should recognize that the means eventually determines the ends, so if we're considering treating Obama as "Clinton II" we'll find ourselves more marginalized than we are right now.

Arthur Sido said...

The real difference between liberals and conservatives, post-election, is that when liberals lose they scream about how much they hate America, that the American people are stupid because they didn't do what the left said they should, they threaten to run away to Europe or Canada. When conservatives lose, we get resolute and determined to fight the good fight, because we believe in America even when we disagree with the choice of the electorate.

BlueDeacon said...

Arthur -- And if you believe that one ... Anyway, if "liberals" feel that way it's because the conservatives are always trying to take away their voice but inaccurately accuse liberals of doing the same. Conservatives really do feel that they're entitled to be culturally dominant, cry when they're not and have no qualms about squelching other views (and, once again, falsely accuse the other side of the same). It's one reason the political right is on the way down as I write.

More importantly, what does this have to do with knowing the Savior and making Him known? This is a major, major distraction from the what the Church of Jesus Christ should be about.

Humberto said...

Bluedeacon,
without addressing your comments regarding Clinton, your point regarding Marx is troubling. It is very easy to find the good points of socialism and communism living in the US. I still have to have someone show me an example of a socialist or communist country which is a success, and is not in reality a failure and repressive country. Karl Marx's ideas are evil, they have led to evil governments, and nothing good has come out of them. The good you hear is mere propaganda. It doesn't exist.
Lastly, I believe it is important for the church to address these issues. After all, persecution of the church has always come from governments so it does affect us in a big way. If we as a church, ignore our own principles, and get close to a government which openly promotes horrendous and evil practices and ideas, than we will stop being salt of the earth and will not last. If Obama is pushing ungodly ideas, we cannot afford to look the other way. Same would apply to the republican presidents.

BlueDeacon said...

It is very easy to find the good points of socialism and communism living in the US. I still have to have someone show me an example of a socialist or communist country which is a success, and is not in reality a failure and repressive country. Karl Marx's ideas are evil, they have led to evil governments, and nothing good has come out of them. The good you hear is mere propaganda. It doesn't exist.

I didn't say it was necessarily good or that I agree with the end result, only that it's not enough to condemn a system without understanding the history that led up to it. It sounds as though you come from Cuba, where the ruling class used its power to enrich itself at the expense of the masses -- making that country a sitting duck for Marxism (because Marx observed that as well). My hero of the Christian faith, Martin Luther King Jr., readily denounced Communism for the very same reasons as you but admitted that Marx did make some good points -- and in fact, some African-Americans were tempted toward Communism because Marx had struck a nerve.

You see, opposing Communism for its own sake isn't the answer; the first people Hitler got rid of in Germany -- before even the Jews -- were the Marxists. It's easy to blame Neville Chamberlain for "appeasing" him in the 1930s, but keep in mind that Europe in those days feared Stalin more. No, more important is, at least for us Christians, to "do justice, love mercy and walk humbly with God" (Micah 6:8). If we do that we choke the very roots of Communism and don't even give it a chance to thrive.

Lastly, I believe it is important for the church to address these issues. After all, persecution of the church has always come from governments so it does affect us in a big way.

Not necessarily true. Frankly, most of the persecution I've ever received in the name of Christ came from other Christians because I dare to be "politically incorrect"; at times I've been treated like an unbeliever. I've also seen some slights at work, from my family and others; believers also complain about the media.

That said, being concerned about our rights and no one else's actually violates Scripture. From Philippians 2:4:

Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.

Humberto said...

Bluedeacon,
Cuba did not have a ruling class taking advantage of the lower class. In fact before Castro, 75% of the population was middle class. The population did not want communism, and that's the reason why Castro did not announce he was a Marxist until two years after he was in power. And the lower class is poorer today than they were in 1959.
As a side not, Hitler was a socialist. He ran under the "National Socialist German Worker's Party", and most of his ideas are mainstream socialist ideas today.
And on the Christian side, my friend, I speak of persecution mostly the same way the Bible refers to it. Not when people stop talking to us, but more when Christians are put in jail for their faith, or that are tortured and killed because they preached the word of God to a neighbor.
I can tell you're sincere in your opinions, and I'm with you in our duty to look out for our neighbor. That's why it is hard to support socialist reforms. Socialist ideas are evil and they will crush the weak and minorities. In fact blacks always fare off worse than anyone else under socialist governments. Going back to Cuba, the government is almost entirely composed of whites, and the ones who live in the worst conditions are Afro-cubans. I, as a Christian cannot support a form of government that steals what blessings God gave some, and gives it to the poor in order to buy their consciences and promote oppression, persecution, infanticide, promiscuity and equal rights of sins. If we are to help the poor, it must be done in a Biblical manner, at the individual level, and in a voluntary way.

BlueDeacon said...

Cuba did not have a ruling class taking advantage of the lower class.

Not entirely true, according to reports I've read. In fact, one column reported that political leadership at that time "rented [the country] to U.S. gangsters" and that gambling and prostitution were cottage industries before Castro took over. (Funny, I don't recall Christians being outraged about that kind of behavior, which also represents an affront to God. But this is what I'm talking about -- some sins are palatable depending on who commits them and why, and it makes our holy God sound as though He takes sides.)

As a side not, Hitler was a socialist. He ran under the "National Socialist German Worker's Party", and most of his ideas are mainstream socialist ideas today.

Let me repeat -- the first people Hitler took out were the Marxists, and fascism (which was different from Marxism in that industry remained in private hands) also took root in South Africa, which also perpetrated social injustice and was obsessed with fighting Communism. But in the 1980s conservative Christians in this country actually defended that kind of socialism, there known as apartheid. Why? In part because it perpetuated a class system that allowed them and their allies to push people around (their ultimate goal).

And on the Christian side, my friend, I speak of persecution mostly the same way the Bible refers to it. Not when people stop talking to us, but more when Christians are put in jail for their faith, or that are tortured and killed because they preached the word of God to a neighbor.

That's not going to happen here because faith is too much a part of the culture. You may have conservative opinions denigrated from time to time, but those are two different matters. Besides, as South African anti-apartheid activist Steven Biko said to his newspaper editor friend Donald Woods, who had just joined the movement and at the time was being threatened with imprisonment, "A few months in jail might be what you need to prove your credibility as a budding activist." Some years ago the Rev. Jim Wallis and the Rev. Tony Campolo, both evangelicals, and others were arrested for demonstrating in the rotunda of the U.S. Capitol -- but that was never picked up by any Christian media. Why? Because the gathering wasn't ideologically conservative.

But here's the point. Obama is no more a socialist than any other politician; that scurrilous charge has been hung on him by people more concerned with hanging onto power at the expense of the Gospel of reconciliation. That said, the Scripture does call for the reordering of the political system wherever possible so that the people He created may have a chance to make their own way; if we Christians argue and work for that it will make evangelism so much easier. And, brother, that's a far cry from "soulless economic redistribution." No, it can't just be done privately, any more so than abortion can be stopped entirely privately.

Deb_B said...

BlueDeacon: "Not entirely true, according to reports I've read."

Mmmmmm...Humberto actually lived through it before making his way to freedom in America.

So you allege what he's said regarding his personal experiences under the brutal Castro regime are "not entirety true", but in your own words, your opinion is based, not on personal experience, but merely on "reports I've read".

Interesting.

BlueDeacon said...

So you allege what he's said regarding his personal experiences under the brutal Castro regime are "not entirety true", but in your own words, your opinion is based, not on personal experience, but merely on "reports I've read".

I'm pointing out two things: One, his view isn't the only one (keep in mind that many people still live in Cuba and support the regime and that it represents a different culture anyway); and two, the bigger issue, we're nowhere near the type of "socialism" he fears. Comparing Obama to Fidel Castro or any Communist leader thus is irresponsible and irrelevant but designed to scare.

At the Bible study I attended a few hours ago, one of the passages we studies was Luke 8:22-25, the account of Jesus and the disciples setting out across the lake and the storm coming up, causing the disciples to freak out -- and then He calms the storm.

The point is not that we should focus on our freedoms (which Christ gives us) but use them to bless people. It makes no sense to defend "freedom of religion" if we're not going to practice it correctly, dishonoring God in the process.

Deb_B said...

It's okay, Blue, Humerto knows report-reading is quite likely about to turn into experiential discovery.

That won't be nearly as interesting ... but it will speak for itself, quite loudly at that.

professorpolisci said...

Humberto,

While I'm no communist or socialist, I think the people of Scandinavia might disagree with your assertions. They have a very socialized society, low crime rates, high incomes (and yes very high taxes), and excellent health care.

The poorest in America have had their voices silenced for nearly two centuries by the dominance of conservative thought. That Christians have stood by and nodded in assent as this was done is to our shame. Some among us have awoken to the injustice of this while others continue to stick their fingers in their ears and deny that there is a problem.

Truth is that policy makers design policies to benefit policy makers. Plain and simple. I don't know if the Democrats care any more about the poor huddled masses than the Republicans do but at least they are aware of the problem.

P.R.E.Z. said...

Blue: it's sad to hear you say these things. Honestly, it is because you are so far off base here it's not even funny.

Here's my problem with those who agree with the socialism, Marxism, and so forth in their effort to try to post about it in a way that makes it all soft and mushy: not a bit of it is biblical.

This is the problem when you try to justify something not based on scripture, but based on personal presuppositions then try to take scripture out of context to justify your position.

In Acts 5:1-11, we have a situation where Ananias and Sapphira are struck dead by the Lord. And what Peter said to them summed it all up:

Whiles it remained, did it not remain thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thy power? How is it that thou hast conceived this thing in thy heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

The reason why this was important is that in God's government, no one is forced to do anything. Not even the angels. We have the choice whether to do it or not.

Socialism, Marxism, communism, fascism, and the variations thereof takes choice away from the individual and forces them to do something by rule of the majority, no matter how evil it is.

QUOTE: You see, we Christians are willing to fight for our "freedom" but not so much for opportunity for those who don't have the same. That is justice according to the Scriptures, not "socialism."

My opportunities have been no different than the next guys no matter what color they were or social status. I've never had an opportunity taken from me. I've never blamed someone else or cried woe is me because things were hard or more difficult than someone else. I've never looked to the government to take care of me for any reason. The sky has been the limit for me. I have been blessed to do many things and I praise God I was able to pursue them...without the government's help but with God's. I don't give in to the false hype that everyone is against me and I can't get ahead without help from the government.

The vast majority of black people have given in to a victim mentality that is being propogated by godless men calling themselves leaders. They have given in to Marxism, communism, and the idea that someone owes them something and that taking this forcefully from someone is the way to do it (taxes, fees, bailouts, and whatever else you want to throw in there). They are more racist then white people and the so called leaders continue to keep the lie alive because if they don't it spells doom for them.

Booker T. Washington recognized this as far back as 1911 when he said: "There's a class of colored people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs, and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Having learned that they are able to make a living out of it, they have grown into the settled habit of advertising their wrongs-partly because they want sympathy and partly because it pays."

Far too many African-Americans have fallen victim to this belief. They sit at home waiting for a government check while all the while not doing a thing to further themselves. They believe the lie of liberalism which shouts that the government needs to take care of you than the truth of scripture that says, "For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, If any will not work, neither let him eat. (2 Thess: 3:10)

There's so much more. Suffice it to say, you are not politically incorrect. You're lock step with the liberal agenda which is about as anti-Christ as you can get. I don't see how you can adhere to the doctrine of liberalism and be a Christian. It's impossible.

Let the games begin.

BlueDeacon said...

Deb -- It's about ideological commitment, and ideologues rarely get anything correct in context.

BlueDeacon said...

The vast majority of black people have given in to a victim mentality that is being propogated by godless men calling themselves leaders. They have given in to Marxism, communism, and the idea that someone owes them something and that taking this forcefully from someone is the way to do it (taxes, fees, bailouts, and whatever else you want to throw in there).

You just succinctly gave the reasons why more and more people are rejecting the conservative agenda -- that statement is total nonsense. For openers, even a Martin Luther King Jr. opposed Communism and even preached against it (I have two volumes of his sermons and writings), yet he was denounced by conservative Christians as a Marxist because he challenged the status quo.

To those of you who are throwing about that slur regularly (and it is a slur similar to using the N-word), understand that socialism is by definition focused only on the material, never on either God or human relationships. And we're not even close to that point.

And as for the Washington quote, you should know that he was in the minority even in his day. The NAACP was founded in direct opposition to his "go slow" status, as Washington naively believed that racial harmony would eventually come once blacks raised themselves morally and gained the respect of the rest of society; he turned out to be totally wrong, as things turned out. The civil-rights movement -- whose original foot-soldiers comprised the professional and mercantile class and thus actually put their very careers on the line -- cemented that folly. (And to this day, conservatives hate the NAACP because it won't kiss their butts.)

Far too many African-Americans have fallen victim to this belief. They sit at home waiting for a government check while all the while not doing a thing to further themselves. They believe the lie of liberalism which shouts that the government needs to take care of you than the truth of scripture that says, "For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, If any will not work, neither let him eat. (2 Thess: 3:10)

Another outright lie, and frankly racist to boot. Yes, racist, because you assume that African-Americans won't work for what they want and expect to have everything handed to them without learning the reality of poverty in the black community (a subject too long for this thread). As long as conservatives believe and teach these insulting falsehoods as gospel, we will never have true racial harmony, especially in the church, because you're denouncing members of the family of Christ in the process. And frankly, it's always been the conservatives who want to maintain that entitlement status, that no one has the right to challenge their belief system. Well, guess what? The general election two years ago should have given a clue as to what was happening.

You know, Jesse Jackson actually displayed some resentment toward Obama during the campaign because he didn't fall into line. That's no different from the political right -- and what I'm hearing on this thread. The truth is that the Body, to be true to the Head, is going to have to make room for those of different political views and not identify one particular persuasion as overtly Christian lest it succumb to arrogance.

Humberto said...

Professorpolisci,
I appreciate your comments. I have not lived in any of the Scandinavian countries, but I did live in Europe for a fews years, and I still go back once a year. I lived through public healthcare over there and I have compared. All of the European countries brag about their healthcare, and they publish numbers proving that it is better than the one we have here. But this is also part of the socialist propaganda machine. It is not true. Their waiting times to see a doctor are always in the months for any medical generalist or specialist, and the level of care is significantly lower.
And as for their economy, the little I know is this. Scandinavia ranked drastically higher in the worlds economies before the socialist reforms of the 1970's. Right now, they're one of the poorest nations in Europe and one of the worst to do business in, due to socialist government regulations. In fact, Iceland just received a huge bailout because they went bankrupted.
My friend, this idea that the poor cannot succeed in the US, and that they have no voice I just have not seen. My family came with nothing, and they've moved up through the years. This because the one thing that this country still holds, which is a biblical principle, is that if you work, you'll get rewarded, no matter who you are. The harder you work, the better you make out. That applies to me, my neighbor, and to the poorest person in this country. Obama is a testimony of that. But if your work ethics are bad, this country does not have a system that will reward you.
Conservatism is holding on to principles which are deeply rooted in the Bible, and to a freedom which I vouch for, is a great blessing from God. Conservatives have done many things wrong, I agree, and I will not excuse those doings. But there's something deeply wrong and evil about socialist ideas. They're designed to reward a population within a country for it's bad habits, and sinful ways, taking away from the other population that does things the right way. But, the way it rewards its lower class citizens is not by bringing them up in the ranks, but by impoverishing everyone else in the country. If conservatism does not work, socialism is by no means an answer. I will tell you this though, socialism is the answer to a country that wants more liberty to sin. That's one of the main points about in socialist individuals and governments. Just look at the corrupt ideas Obama is putting forth already regarding abortion, homosexual rights, sex education.
And finishing up with europe, there's an interesting parallel in how the church is disappearing there, and how stronger the governments are getting each year. Scandinavia was protestant long ago. Now it has by far the most socialist liberal of the european countries. Prostitution is legal, pornography is everywhere, gay marriage is legal, and the same token the church is almost non-existent. Godlessness goes hand in hand with socialism.

P.R.E.Z. said...
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Psalm said...
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Stan McCullars said...

BlueDeacon,
You stated: The truth is that the Body, to be true to the Head, is going to have to make room for those of different political views and not identify one particular persuasion as overtly Christian lest it succumb to arrogance.

I disagree.

There are several issues on which there can be no compromise. Abortion is one such issue. The only position on abortion that is consistent with Biblical Christianity is to oppose abortion. To do otherwise is to do the work of the devil, unless of course one can reconcile dismembering babies with the Bible.

BlueDeacon said...

There are several issues on which there can be no compromise. Abortion is one such issue. The only position on abortion that is consistent with Biblical Christianity is to oppose abortion. To do otherwise is to do the work of the devil, unless of course one can reconcile dismembering babies with the Bible.

I'm not necessarily talking about that -- as a matter of fact, most African-Americans are "pro-life," and the same people who came out for Obama in California also voted against the state's referendum allowing gay marriage (which he also opposes). That said, conservatives have always used those two issues for the sake of power, not because they cared about the issues themselves, which is why blacks often have ignored them in the voting booth.

But if we're talking about abortion, for the past few years Democratic candidates have also been talking about ways to reduce it (in light of the reality that we likely won't see Roe v. Wade overturned anytime soon even if McCain won). Back on its anniversary in 2005, Hillary Clinton angered pro-choice supporters by bringing it up (even though she's always believed it).

Anyway, by political differences I mean that if someone believes that government programs can be helpful in getting people out of poverty (and in the past they have done so), he or she should not be insulted as a "socialist" -- my own interracial, multi-cultural and multi-socio-economic church believes in that, but easily half of the testimonies at our annual Thanksgiving service come from people who got off drugs and alcohol.

One ridiculous thing that I heard about Obama is that he would take money from whites and give it to blacks. No. What I believe he would do is to change the system so that everyone, not just the few, will benefit, to give the formerly locked out a chance to make their own way -- which is Biblical. But the folks who would oppose that believe that they are entitled to what they get without realizing that it's a gift from God to be used for His purposes. That may be why God raised up Obama to become president -- they were using Him to maintain their superior class status and God, in His mercy, has removed at least part of it. After all, as I mentioned before, many "Christians" violently opposed MLK Jr.

BlueDeacon said...

However what I see and, I know, is that now there is no reason and no place for speaking the word racism. There is no place for unnatural selection, no place for opportunity preference, no place for bitterness.

Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. During the primary campaign, the governor of my state said that, when he last ran for his office, a number of whites came to him and said they would vote for him because his opponent was black (even though he was a conservative Republican). During this campaign a congressman who represents a rural area called it a "racist area" (which was true but may have been impolitic). Even now studies show that white evangelicals represent in fact the most racist attitudes of any group, and if you listen to right-wing talk radio you'll hear bitterness up the wazoo. So we have a very, very long way to go.

Stan McCullars said...

BlueDeacon,
Even now studies show that white evangelicals represent in fact the most racist attitudes of any group

I seriously doubt that "white" evangelicals have a monopoly on racism.

White Evangelicals are racists?

Vote for McCain because he is white

BlueDeacon said...

I seriously doubt that "white" evangelicals have a monopoly on racism.

You will never be told to leave a minority fellowship or church because you're white, which I assume you are. Even Jeremiah Wright's former church has numerous white members, and once he even counseled a black woman who wanted to break her engagement to a white man to go through with the marriage. I, on the other hand, have been told to leave a white fellowship because I'm not white, and my present church would not allow minorities to attend 30 years ago. End of discussion.

gigantor1231 said...

B.D.

We have had countless conversations on this blog and from what I have assessed of what you communicate here You are at the opposite end of the spectrum of Rush, and neither one of you espouse Biblical truth! You speak no scriptural truth and those 'studies' you deem worthy guide you. You have heard the true Gospel and you have chosen worldly wisdom, socialistic humanist wisdom as your guide. So, my advice to you is follow your chosen philosophies you agree with and see where they take you.

BlueDeacon said...

Stan -- One other thing.

I did look at your entries and will answer the question: "Why the groupthink?" Very simple -- most African-Americans regardless of class, background or education have similar experiences. They do not support the likes of Clarence Thomas or Condoleeza Rice because they know they were in fact set up by white conservatives uninterested in true reconciliation but who want to show they're not "racist" -- even Thomas understands that now. Be advised that blacks will never accept the conservative agenda under any circumstances despite having a higher percentage of church attendance and evangelical commitment than the community at large; only when white evangelicals understand that will there will be a chance of real harmony. In other words, conservatives are now no longer setting the terms of the debate.

BlueDeacon said...

gigangtor123 -- I will not waste my time arguing with you because, frankly, you have no idea of what you're talking about. When you learn something, then maybe we can discuss.

gigantor1231 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
gigantor1231 said...

B.D.

LOL, I know B.D., you are the voice of authority and reason here! By the way;

Col. 2: 8

8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits2 of the world, and not according to Christ.

This is from the Bible, a book that has a little more authority than your lofty words and opinions! It is the exact representation of Christ and packs all the authority one needs to reach out to a dieing world, it holds the Gospel message and that is the only hope for this world!

As far as racists are concerned, out of all the people that I have crossed paths with here you are the only one that pulls out that little card. The truth is that you are the only racist here, however I do not think that word is fitting for you because it is not really a valid word anyway, it is a untruthful word. You are a cat that has simply changed his stripes and you deliver your vitriolic bitter words in a different form. So, prate on.

Stan McCullars said...

BlueDeacon,
You sound like a very bitter man.

I've never been asked to leave a church because of my race.

However, I have been asked, at the wrong end of a shotgun I might add, to leave a convenience store because of my race. When I was nine years old, I watched a "white" basketball coach of mine have a knife put to his throat because of his race. I've had a few other experiences where multiple "black" people assaulted me solely because of my race.

Get off your high horse.

BlueDeacon said...

You sound like a very bitter man.

Hardly. In fact, God burned any bitterness out of me decades ago; I just returned from the church which gave me the Gospel back then. However, the political right does share considerable responsibility for the state of the poor but refuses to face it. That's one reason it lost big time last week and won't be back in power anytime soon -- if at all.

Get off your high horse.

Take another look at that statement -- you would dare lecture and insult a brother in Christ just because he challenges your pet ideology, which frankly is highly uninformed? The Scripture has a term for that -- divisive, and He hates division among believers. Furthermore, you have proven my point -- if not to you, but to much of the world (including much of the Church).

Stan McCullars said...

BlueDeacon,
Should we just call you the all knowing one?

BlueDeacon said...

Don't bother -- there's a whole generation of people who know and have experienced way, way more than I. I request only that you ask God for the humility to realize that you don't have all of the answers (or even ask the right questions) and to seek those folks out. Do that in the right spirit and they will show you things that you never noticed before. That will go a long way in healing the breach between black and white Christians -- and the LORD deeply desires to do so.

gigantor1231 said...

B.D.

'However, the political right does share considerable responsibility for the state of the poor but refuses to face it.'

This has always been one of your key problems B.D., you blame, JUDGE, others for things that you truly only have minimal insight into! 'The political right does share considerable responsibility for the state of the poor'. While some conditions may be created by policies of political institutions, and this includes flaming liberals as yourself, you are to blame for your blame shifting and unwillingness to teach the only answer to poverty, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, in the end it always comes down to the individual and their relationship to the living God. Don't you get it? He sets up and tears down 1 Sam. 2: 7; Ps. 75: 6, 7; Dan. 2: 21; 4: 17, He brings calamity Job 31: 23, Is. 45: 7, Jer. 18: 8-17. This does not mean that there are not those that oppress others, there are wicked men in government who oppress and they will be judged for their evil practices. It is up to those that know Christ to take the the Gospel to the poor, to teach them Christ's way, we are to share what we have and Christ will take up what we lack.
B.D. I have to be honest with you, you really show how desperate you are when you go to your little book of racism, you lose all integrity and credibility. If you are truly a 'born from above' Christian then support what you say from the Word of God! Apart from that you sound like a walking advertisement for the bowless man on the white horse, if you are waiting for him to show up you will have your peace and social justice and then you will see the rest of the story.

BlueDeacon said...

gigantor123 -- I don't want to hear it. You are in fact doing the very same thing of which you accuse me but have nothing to back up your claims, so as far as I'm concerned your statements are meaningless.

gigantor1231 said...

B.D.

Very typical response, deflect and deny but never answer!

And what is this?

'During services this morning and in response to the election of Barack Obama to the U.S. presidency last week, the pastor of my interracial church invited all the African-Americans, myself included, to stand. He then directed the rest of the congregation to lay hands on us because he believed that a spiritual stronghold had finally been broken with Tuesday's result.'

Please Biblically support how the event of Barack Obama becoming president is of spiritual significance. This is truly a worldly event in the grandest of ways but I assure you that there is no celebration in heaven because Barack is president of the U.S.A.. So, if you can Biblically defend your little premise of spiritual significance B.D..

BlueDeacon said...

gigantor123 -- Your diatribe is not worth responding to. Go find someone else to take your anger out on.

gigantor1231 said...

B.D.

Predictable and sad response! As usual you cannot defend your own assertions and premises. I am not angry, I am simply asking you to defend what is Biblically untenable!

BlueDeacon said...

gigantor123 -- Give it up; I'm not responding to your obvious attempts to bait me into a fruitless argument.

gigantor1231 said...

B.D.

LOL, not trying to bait you into anything, you are simply being exposed, uncovered as to what you really are and it is all due to your weak and pitiful responses.

Psalm said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
BlueDeacon said...

It takes little effort to see Satan in the ranks. Racism shall consume this government and it shall do evil even among its own and when it is to late, they shall see whom they have lifted up, for he who they have trusted shall deceive them and shall bring them where they would not go for his own sake, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The lord of hosts shall not be mocked. The servant of the Lord shall destroy them before His eyes and his head shall be cut from the east to the west.

Funny -- I said the same thing about Ronald Reagan.

roadwolf said...

This is directed at Rick (Blue Deacon),

I have been following this thread with great interest and wanted to just say here (as I don't have any other means to contact you privately) that keep up the good fight. I understand your point of views here thoroughly and you don't have to kowtow to the subscribed views here. Don't let them beat you down... follow Jesus and your convictions.

You appear to be a reasonable and sincere blogger and I commend you for your inputs here and on your blog. Your views, as a black man, are insightful as to how the evangelical and politically conservative have responded to both the black community and to Obama specifically. Don't let them bait you into betraying the high road.

I hope to dialogue with you down the road.

Take care.

Chris

BlueDeacon said...

roadwolf -- I appreciate your affirmation. I've been raising these kind of issues for over two decades in the evangelical realm, with (unfortunately) similar reactions. But this is what happens when you live in a bubble; without information from legitimate outside sources you end up believing that anyone who deviates from the standard line is somehow less than human, and that attitude has done serious violence to the Gospel.

P.R.E.Z. said...

Folks, let me try and wrap this up so we can move on to something more productive.

It is quite obvious that Mr. Deacon will believe what he wants to believe and arguing with him gets us no where. Yes, I know he's been insulting and yes, I know he has absolutely not one shred of scripture to support what he says. But really, that's his problem.

I know way too many black folks and trust me, I know his ilk. This is a lost cause. He's sincere about what he believes...but he's sincerely wrong. Let him be.

Scripture is clear:

Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. (2 Tim. 2:14)

He hasn't presented a convincing argument from scripture (because quite frankly, you can't) and the those who have presented it from a scriptural standpoint he maligns, calls names, and then defends it as if it's NOT sin. We can go all day just on that but that's not the subject of this post.

Best thing to do is leave him alone.

P.R.E.Z.
The Truth Manifesto

gigantor1231 said...

Y'all

In light of what Bluedeacon has said here I think it is important that you know and understand his true agenda. Bluedeacon's focus is on social reform rather than the spiritual reform of man, salvation from sin is something that apparently needs to be diminished to a minimum or completely disregarded, replaced with social renewal and ecumenical unity of all. The following quotation from his most recent thread on his blog ( uncommonsensecommentary.blogspot.com ) sums it up;

'More importantly, "salvation" is becoming less and less the be-all and end-all of the purpose of the church. I see a movement toward building community; a concern for the health and welfare of the world that, while fallen, God created for His glory; and a desire to break away from self-centered "boomer" theology, in many cases by recapturing a sense of the holy.'

These are Bluedeacon's words, there is nothing contrived here by me, nothing manipulated, it is pure Bluedeacon. So, hold this up to the word of God and contend earnestly for the faith.

BlueDeacon said...

Yes, I know he's been insulting and yes, I know he has absolutely not one shred of scripture to support what he says. But really, that's his problem.

Oh, I know the Scripture well and can quote it with the best of them. But I don't subscribe to a worldview that expects everyone to kiss its heinie, which frankly many of the people who post here do. And I'm sorry you feel insulted, but this very blog at times promotes that (you don't think the very term "Obamanation" isn't an insult?), and it's time that some of God's people told it like it was. You see, I'm not interested in taking snippets of the Bible to prove my point; my vision is way too big, as well as His.

I know way too many black folks and trust me, I know his ilk. This is a lost cause. He's sincere about what he believes...but he's sincerely wrong. Let him be.

You just contradicted yourself, because in fact you have shown that you know next to nothing. And time will show just who's right and wrong.

BlueDeacon said...

gigantor123 -- I stand by those words.

See, based on your response, I conclude that your thinking owes more to Greek dualist philosophy (which Paul noted in a couple of his letters) than to Hebrew culture. In that context, separating "salvation" from personal and social reform is simply nonsense, as evidenced by what Jesus said to Zaccheus when he repented of his swindling ways ("Today, salvation has come to this house"). There is a reason why James says that "faith without works is dead," not "works righteousness" but an inevitable outgrowth of authentic faith.

Furthermore, God also had a specific reason for creating Israel -- that God would use that nation to bless the world, and the church exists for the very same purpose. But, truth be told, I don't hear a lot of "blessing" on this blog -- just a whole lot of denunciation and arguing about what's biblical and what isn't at the expense of true witness; I would hate to see if a non-believer read some of the words published here. We need to make sure that, in defending the efficacy of Scripture, we're not actually violating it in the process. That goes on quite a bit.

gigantor1231 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Stan McCullars said...

For the record, I had stopped referring to Obama as an "Obamanation" a while back.

I now refer to his as an enthusiastic proponent of baby dismemberment.

gigantor1231 said...

B.D.

First, salvation in and through Jesus Christ, by grace through faith not of works lest any man should boast, is the only way to meaningful social reform, everything else is based on a lie and is like a house built on shifting sand! Apart from Christ you can do nothing. This is pure scripture and you have to deny the word of God to refute it. With respect to Zaccheus, he bore the fruit of good works because he first believed on Christ, if he would not have believed on Christ then the fruit of good works would not have come and Christ would have not said what He said. James says that works are the evidence of faith,

"You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Jas 2:18). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

in other words works is faith on display, it is evidence of faith, works is all about displaying faith. The point is that if you have no faith then you have no good works, faith that does not produce good works is no faith at all. In fact John 15 says that apart from the vine, Christ, we can do nothing, in other words you have to be saved, born from above, to do good works, other wise those works are pure trash.
Israel was chosen to be God's people, they were chosen to bring God glory by having faith in Him, faith in His Word. Righteousness was accounted to Abraham because he had faith, and righteousness was accounted to him for no other reason! His righteousness had nothing to do with works once again, works were and still are simply the evidence of that faith, Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his only son was that evidence, it was faith on display. By faith in the ONE AND ONLY LIVING GOD, FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST ALONE, Israel was to be a light and a blessing to the world and apart from faith they could not bless the world, no matter how good or wonderful their works. They were also to be a example and a warning to the world in that no faith in God, faith in any other God, resulted in eternal damnation and separation from Him! They were in no way to be yolked to the ungodly people of the world and in no way were they to ever participate in, encourage or agree with the worship of any of the world's false God's, this was, still is, a abomination to God! Israel failed not because they did not do good works, they failed, were and still are separated from God, because they did not place their faith in Him. They chose to place their faith in their works to bring them salvation and because of their reliance on works God has rejected them! If you understood God's word you would know this.
B.D., you do not hear any blessing because you do not want to, you are so caught up in your color and your race that if someone is not the same as you, you treat them like trash, you always have when you have addressed those that frequent this blog! Your responses have always been in bitterness and with much angst because you feel you are entitled to something from white folks. The problem is that the only debt white folks, or any other skin color you choose, owe is the debt to the one and only living God, Jesus Christ, we owe Him everything because He is worthy and, even though He did not have to, He has purchased us with His blood, He owns us! Your best works are nothing apart from Him, those that do not know Him do no good works at all, there is no social reform or any other type of reform apart from Him. You may imagine there is reform apart from Him but then again you are deceived in believing that, your deception is your problem and your crass little statement to P.R.E.Z. epitomizes who you really are and what you are about;

'Oh, I know the Scripture well and can quote it with the best of them. But I don't subscribe to a worldview that expects everyone to kiss its heinie, which frankly many of the people who post here do.'

and from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, He is the Word and you hate Him. How sad for you, perhaps God will have mercy on you and open your blinded eyes.

BlueDeacon said...

I now refer to his as an enthusiastic proponent of baby dismemberment.

You might as well go back to "Obamanation." You know full well there's a difference between being "pro-choice" and "pro-abortion"; nobody is an "enthusiastic proponent of baby dismemberment." Or didn't you know that "partial-birth abortion" was already illegal in most states before that Federal law was passed? Didn't think so.

BlueDeacon said...

and from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, He is the Word and you hate Him. How sad for you, perhaps God will have mercy on you and open your blinded eyes.

Please -- you clearly hate my guts, just like the Pharisees who hated Jesus because He wouldn't recognize their spiritual "superiority." Not that I'm Jesus, of course, but let me quote him here: "Physician, heal yourself!" You talk a good game about His Word but you violate it with your own words, as I posted earlier. And I would say that even if you were having this argument with someone else.

SJ Camp said...

To All
I have been out ministering this past week and just returned home. I have enjoyed this discussion here and wanted to see how it was going to unfold.

I attend a large, multiethnic congregation in Nashville. This has been a real issue at the church. Race, unfortunately, played a significant role in this election; many voting the color of their skin and not the content of ones character. Sadly, Martin Luther King's words were not fulfilled in the outcome of this election; but yet we can rejoice that a biracial person could now ascend to the office of the Presidency. That barrier needed to be broken.

Here is the short of it:
1. We need to pray for President-elect Obama that the Lord would grant him saving faith and repentance leading to salvation through Christ alone.

2. We need to call our leaders to righteousness and justice in how they govern. That is permissible and necessary under Romans 13.

3. We need to keep the supremacy of the gospel chief in our activity - not politics.

4. Limbaugh was correct in his assessment and that is why he was quoted here.

5. Our nation is under the judgment of God. Obama is part of that judgment. I firmly believe that God has given our country a leader that embodies its depravity and skewed practices - abortion being the most barbaric and murderous. Obama is complicit in every life killed by the abortion mills of our land.

6. Our nation needs reformation AND revival. Both are important. Reformation to correct the wrongs and reclaim the gospel and the authority of God's Word within the church. And revival as well, to quicken His people once again in obedience to the Lord.

Grace and truth,
Steve
1 Peter 2:11-17

P.R.E.Z. said...

Blue: Sigh. What is the deal that you feel you need to come on here and continue to insult people?

This is where I'm down at:

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

I'm not seeing this from you at all. At all. I haven't said anything about you personally and yet you feel justified in attacking me and belittling me by saying I know next to nothing just because I said you were wrong.

If I know next to nothing according to you who knows more than I do, so be it. However, I'm reminded of these scriptures when I see our responses:

A fool's lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes . (Proverbs 18:6)

A wrathful man stirreth up strife: . (Proverbs 15:18a)

You will wholeheartedly disagree with that but I think the witness of what has transpired on this blog speaks for itself.

Listen, I'm not trying to put you on blast just because we disagree. I didn't come into this with that in mind at all. We actually have agreed on one or two things in the past. But I know this is not the way to convince anyone of your argument.

For the record, don't lump me in there with the people on here who supposedly hate you. I don't hate you. After this little exchange I know I don't like you and I don't have to...but I don't hate you.

Don't think it's because we disagree. I disagree with my next door neighbor on many things and we're still able to act civil...and he's not saved.

In saying this I feel like Paul:

Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? (Galatians 4:16)

Just to be clear, I'm talking about this response here and now. Not what this thread is about because I feel the issue that's being addressed here is far more important.

For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. (Galatians 5:13)

You can have the liberty to believe what you want and stand for what you want and so do those of us on the other side. But not to a point to where we, as brothers and sisters in Christ, start being contentious over it because God calls us to be better than that.

Be ye therefore imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, even as Christ also loved you, and gave himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for an odor of a sweet smell. (Ephesians 5:1-2)

I know I've been a little long in the tooth but I'm more concerned when we aren't being what God has called us to be because this dishonors God and it's His glory we should all be focused on.

And whatsoever ye do, in word or in deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him. (Colossians 3:17)

P.R.E.Z.
The Truth Manifesto

BlueDeacon said...

What is the deal that you feel you need to come on here and continue to insult people?

What?! I haven't insulted anyone here! That said, my words, clearly in opposition to the prevailing ideological culture on this blog, are indeed forceful to the point that they may sound like insults. However, if anyone is being insulted here, I am -- it's almost as though I'm not even regarded as a Christian because of how God has used my specific experiences to shape my ministry and knowledge of Him. Too many of us of the "Reformed" persuasion have a limited understanding of what Christ does when He takes over someone's life; however, I try to let God be God and not limit His work to the views of the prevailing religious culture. That was the problem with the Pharisees; they studied the Scriptures but missed the God to whom they pointed.

After this little exchange I know I don't like you and I don't have to...but I don't hate you.

I didn't say you hated me, but gigantor123 clearly does. FWIW, I don't set out to make people like me because I know full well that not everyone will. What I hear from you, OTOH, is disrespect just because I come from a somewhat different culture that, apparently, you don't fully understand; I make that judgment based on one of your earlier posts that you "knew people like me" and that I was a "lost cause." Well, thanks to last week's election results that culture is going to have more import in the days ahead, so it would behoove you to familiarize yourself with it and those of us who are part of it. That's what I told Stan earlier on this thread.

You can have the liberty to believe what you want and stand for what you want and so do those of us on the other side. But not to a point to where we, as brothers and sisters in Christ, start being contentious over it because God calls us to be better than that.

I didn't start that process, BTW -- I was the one who was being attacked for expressing a different view; I only pointed that out and was further denounced. Having posted here from time to time, however, I feel that's almost par for the course. Two weeks ago my pastor (a white conservative Republican) mentioned during his sermon that he was surfing the Web looking for Christian political blogs on discussing the election, and what he found appalled him. I didn't ask him, but I wonder if he checked this site.

Michele Rayburn said...

Gigantor, you said,

First, salvation in and through Jesus Christ, by grace through faith not of works lest any man should boast, is the only way to meaningful social reform..."

Gigantor, I would say "First, salvation in and through Jesus Christ, by grace through faith not of works lest any man should boast...even if there is no meaningful social reform.

Believe it or not, Jesus didn't come to bring social reform to the whole world nor as an end in and of itself. In fact, He said:

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to 'set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.' And a man's foes will be those of his own household." (Matthew 10:34-36)

Benevolence and social reform can be expressions of Christ's love by His people, but only a remnant will be saved nevertheless.

BlueDeacon said...

Mr. Camp -- I understand what you're saying. However, if God is bringing judgment on America by raising up Obama as president, it really doesn't have that much to do with the abortion issue. As I see it, Obama's election was a direct result of the gross mismanagement of the current administration and its congressional allies, on which most evangelical Christians were silent because they were concerned only with abortion, gay rights and their own political freedoms. It in fact represents judgment on much of the Church, same as when Bill Clinton was elected and then re-elected; however, apparently we haven't gotten the message so He's sending it again.

Furthermore, publishing the words of a man who clearly opposed Obama from the start (and probably consistently mocks him on his show -- I refuse to listen to it) doesn't seem terribly appropriate or authoritative. To my knowledge Rush even doesn't claim Christ as Savior and LORD, so why should the words of an unbeliever grace the pages of a website dedicated to the Gospel of Jesus Christ? You understand Paul's warning about not being yoked with unbelievers -- they corrupt the message of redemption and reconciliation through the Cross.

gigantor1231 said...

Michelle

My point was simply that apart from Christ it is all meaningless and empty, so, if you want social reform that is meaningful at all it must be through Christ! I never said or even insinuated that Christ's goal was social reform, He came to save His people from there sins. As far as many being called and few being chosen... are you looking for something to disagree with me on?

B.D.

It is amazing to me that as a published individual, you do write correct? That you could allow yourself to become so disturbed that you could make the ridiculous assumptions and assertions that you do! I do not hate you at all, what you say is pure tripe but that is not the point here. You are using those good old liberal tactics again, deflect, deny and don't answer! Pull the race card, of course you cannot do that to me because you are not certain if I am black or white, then again I am certain that you will now disown me from being black if you think I am, you will go to 'how can a black man say things like that or be so ignorant on such and such a topic', shame on you for resorting to bring up the race issue at all, sounds like it is one of your favorite manipulative tools!
As far as me hating you is concerned, how ridiculous, but then again you are deflecting to me, a master of manipulation trained and practiced by the best in the liberal media I am sure, aren't you! Can't handle the heat so don't answer the question and deflect the negative impact to those that resist you. It's all about you B.D., right???
We have had many discussions on this blog B.D. and you seem more desperate and unreasonable than usual, I suppose that is just a fruit of continued deception, I mean look at you, you can not even call abortion what it is MURDER pure and simple, you gotta find excuses for your man in the White House!
I truly hope that you come to a true knowledge of Christ, if you are saved and so deeply deceived I hope that God will bring healing to you, I am praying for you as I have said before. Now no matter what you say, a person can not hate someone and then pray to God for them and expect results, so you have been refuted on the hated issue B.D., of course we know the hate issue and the race issues are just your methods of deflecting and denying correct B.D.. Now cut that out!!!

gigantor1231 said...

B.D.

Hey we agree on something, look I do not see the Barrackster as being put in the White House as a sign of the judgment of God, I mean if you want to get right down to it judgment on this nation began long before this. As for the Barrackster and his family, I am willing to give the guy a chance to see what he does. His heart is in the hands of God anyway and God will turn it any way He desires. Don't get me wrong, I do not have hi expectations and I do have my doubts but the man deserves a chance to prove himself. Now, I am sure that you could give a rip about me saying this but someones got to extend at least a little olive branch, were not swapping spit though!

BlueDeacon said...

gigantor123 -- With every condescending post you make you prove me right. And that's all I'll say about that.

Michele Rayburn said...

Gigantor,

No, I'm not looking for something to disagree with you on. I was simply trying to clarify a point that I was quite sure you would agree with me on.

It's just that when the idea of social reform is thrown out at Christians, we often fall into the trap of legitimizing that idea rather than clarifying what it really should entail.

Social reform is sometimes exalted above salvation, when it should be seen as the fruit of salvation. And it often displaces the salvation message altogether, and that's why we see a watered down gospel or no gospel at all in too many "Bible believing" churches today.

gigantor1231 said...

B.D.

You are so predictable! Face it, your assertion of hate is a expression of your own heart towards Christ, the Word and those that stand against you. I pray God will have mercy on you, there is hope.

gigantor1231 said...

Michelle

I totally agree with you, forgive my misunderstanding. I thought that was what I was saying all along.

BlueDeacon said...

"First, salvation in and through Jesus Christ, by grace through faith not of works lest any man should boast...even if there is no meaningful social reform.

Impossible -- if Christ is truly enthroned in the hearts of His people, there will be reform because His word does not return void. As the Spirit flows into the lives of believers they begin to change their thinking and actions, focusing less on selfish things and gaining interest not just in the things of God but also in serving others, especially other believers. The Romans and the Communists understood that, which is why they tried desperately but ultimately failed to stamp out Christianity; however (to its everlasting shame) Hitler for the most part co-opted it. I will not be so presumptuous to say just what those reforms will be; however, since the heart of the Gospel is reconciliation you can bet that it will be a high priority.

gigantor1231 said...
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gigantor1231 said...

B.D.

While I agree with you that the spirit of God will change the hearts of men to bare his fruit (see Gal. 5: 22) the final outcome of the entire social structure of man ends in a depraved condition and the Lord eventually will destroy it, creating a new heaven and earth after his return. Sorry, this is what the word of God says and trumps you on every level! So, while we do the works of God, the good works that He has prepared for us, we understand that He has shown us what will happen in the end and our hope is solely in Him and not mankind.
By the way, it is amazing that you speak crassly of those who hold the Word of God as preeminent yet you quote it and expound it's authority by saying that it will not return void. How can this be, salt and fresh water cannot come from the same spring, and a foul attitude and a favorable attitude comes from you with regards to the Word of God and not only that but toward His people. This is wrong!

BlueDeacon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
BlueDeacon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
BlueDeacon said...

By the way, it is amazing that you speak crassly of those who hold the Word of God as preeminent yet you quote it and expound it's authority by saying that it will not return void. How can this be, salt and fresh water cannot come from the same spring, and a foul attitude and a favorable attitude comes from you with regards to the Word of God and not only that but toward His people.

I think I should be asking you that question, truth be told, otherwise you wouldn't be directing your blatantly uninformed rants toward me. It's not enough simply to hold to the Word of God as preeminent; if we don't obey it has no meaning. The Pharisees had that problem -- they executed the Law flawlessly but missed its ultimate purpose, to know the God Who gave it and thus to be a blessing ultimately to the world. You will thus hear no cursing from me except where backed by Scripture, but I have heard it from you quite a bit.

gigantor1231 said...

B.D.

You have heard me curse you? I have only challenged what you have said, but if I have somehow cursed you then please forgive me. I have read through my posts here and I do not find any curses from me, if you can find any perhaps you can show me so I can right this wrong.
Beyond this, and more importantly, why don't you scripturally support your assertions of societal reform over salvation of a man's soul. You yourself have said

'More importantly, "salvation" is becoming less and less the be-all and end-all of the purpose of the church.'

How do you justify this in light of Mt. 28 the great commission, Mt. 1: 21 or 18: 11 where Jesus has come to seek and save the lost. Where are the scriptures, in context, that support a social reform that is separate from spiritual renewal, John 3 says that you must be born from above to know Him and John 15 says that apart from Him you can do nothing. Romans talks about how what is occurring is a spiritual change, not a worldly or fleshly change. The scriptures refute what you say entirely. Perhaps you could show myself and others here passages supporting what you say in God's words and not yours. While you are at it, since you call me a pharisee, please point out my legalism, especially show me how my man made traditions take precedent over the grace of God. I have always held to the doctrine of grace through faith alone for salvation, but if you see some legalism then produce where it is that I have supported legalism.
At least when I have seen something that you are wrong in I have brought it to you in your own words. Take some responsibility and intelligently support your assertions and accusations!

BlueDeacon said...

All I will say that, for all your talk about God's grace, you have shown me virtually no grace -- all you do is argue "theology" and trying to tell me where I'm "wrong" to prove yourself superior. I avoid quoting Scripture in cases like these because, though I know it very well, I don't want to fall into the trap of using it as a weapon because by definition it's taking God's Word out of context. And this thus will be my final response to you.

P.R.E.Z. said...

Sigh.

Oh well. I'm not saying I'm sad to see you go. Just didn't want you to go away mad. Really.

Funny how he automatically assumed what racial background I was. Fact of the matter is, I never mentioned it because it has no bearing whatsoever. I don't play the race card because it's stupid.

Well, well....let's move on shall we?

Anyone up for some spades?

P.R.E.Z.
The Truth Manifesto

gigantor1231 said...

B.D.

In contrast to the things you have said to me and what I have requested of you I will let your closing words stand on their own. Sorry to see you run, was actually hoping you would be able to defend the hope that is with in you with the source of all truth, God's Word! Oh well.
My prayers are with you.

BlueDeacon said...

Oh well. I'm not saying I'm sad to see you go. Just didn't want you to go away mad. Really.

I didn't say I was leaving, only that I wasn't responding to gigantor123 anymore.

Funny how he automatically assumed what racial background I was. Fact of the matter is, I never mentioned it because it has no bearing whatsoever. I don't play the race card because it's stupid.

Sorry, but it does matter; even the early church recognized that. In truth, I used to be similarly naive until my third year in college, when I was told to leave an evangelical campus fellowship because I was black (but folks from other ethnic groups were welcome). It's also the reason why most African-Americans, even evangelicals, consistently vote Democratic and even more so for Obama -- the conservatives who run the Republican Party don't even want to deal squarely with the race issue because doing so because they got to where they were by using "code" words. And as I mentioned before, my present church turned away blacks as recently as 30 years ago and some of those folks still attend. Rush Limbaugh, the author of this commentary, has made overtly racist remarks on his radio show.

P.R.E.Z. said...

Oh Mylanta! CWMC. You're like a bad rash!

Agree to disagree and drop it. Nothing to see here. Move on.

P.R.E.Z.
The Truth Manifesto

BlueDeacon said...

You're like a bad rash!

A personal insult not worthy of a believer. Or perhaps I should consider it a compliment.

Agree to disagree and drop it. Nothing to see here.

Uh-uh -- it's best to deal with things now because we certainly will have to do so later.

SJ Camp said...

I rarely do this on any thread on my blog, but I do believe that it is time to move on here...

When the discussion devolves to personal insults rather than substantive discussion biblically - it's time to move on...

Thank you all for this vibrant and mostly helpful exchange.

Grace and peace,
Steve
Col. 1:9-14

BlueDeacon said...

Understood, but I would ask you in the future to refrain from referencing non-believing conservatives because it confuses authentic Biblical faith with man-made ideology; if I were told back in the 1970s that to be a Christian I had to be also a Republican I might not be a believer today. In my view the heart of the Gospel is reconciliation; however, Rush Limbaugh is all about division and doesn't have a reconciling bone in his body.

SJ Camp said...

I will reference whomever I choose to reference on any subject anytime. Reason? This is my blog. No other explanation is necessary.

You don't have to vote Republican to be considered a Christian. But you should mind your vote biblically. Voting for any candidate (Rep or Dem) who unashamedly supports the unbridled murder and genocidel extinction of unborn shows a lack of discernment and betrays the God of the Bible.

Race doesn't trump life.

The cross waves higher than the flag.
Steve
2 Cor. 4:5

BlueDeacon said...

You don't have to vote Republican to be considered a Christian. But you should mind your vote biblically. Voting for any candidate (Rep or Dem) who unashamedly supports the unbridled murder and genocidel extinction of unborn shows a lack of discernment and betrays the God of the Bible.

That's the very mistake many Christians make when they vote -- because, based solely on the abortion issue, we often end up supporting candidates with no aptitude for public office and/or Christian character. There's a reason why the Democrats "won" the last two general elections, and truth be told abortion had little or nothing to do with it. (And it also had virtually nothing to do with why Republicans have won in other years.)

Besides, back in the late 1970s conservative groups latched on to the abortion issue to justify their otherwise morally and politically regressive agenda and largely for the sake of fundraising, tainting the "sanctity of human life" in the process (because, in practice, that depends only on whose it is); when Roe was decided one Southern Baptist official even praised the ruling because abortion in those days was considered a "Catholic issue." (The Roman Catholic Church, despite its major theological flaws, gets the "consistent life" ethic absolutely right.) If you haven't heard, abortion isn't even mentioned, even indirectly, in the Scriptures -- my own opposition to abortion predated my Christian conversion by six years. And in fact we didn't even have laws against it in this country until the late 1800s -- and they were passed by liberals concerned with sexual exploitation of women.

OTOH, race is an issue that Christians do need to address front-and-center because, like it or not, the Church itself has been and still is deeply divided over it; if we can't get our own house in order we'll have a tough time being the true Body the LORD desires us to be, let alone putting legs on His Gospel. When he was living in South Africa in the 1920s Mohandas Gandhi, disillusioned with Hinduism, having studied the Bible and curious about Christianity, decided to visit a church -- but because he wasn't white he was turned away. He concluded that "these people do not practice what they preach" and never considered Christianity again. Can you imagine the impact he could have had back in India had that church welcomed him?

Stan McCullars said...

Steve,
You were saying...

gigantor1231 said...

B.D.

Having read your blog and understanding that you want to usher in the kingdom of God now, thus your drive for social reformation, you at least need to understand what this passage of scripture is saying;

Galatians 3: 23-29

23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Ga 3:23-29). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

This is His kingdom, we are His and we are of Him and that fact trumps all other worldly issues, race, color, nationality, socio-economic standing... etc.. So, you need to get over being a victim and if you are truly a Christian understand who you belong to and what you need to do to please Him! There is only one road to freedom, one road to overcome all of the problems that you are, in futility, trying to overcome and that is through faith in Jesus Christ.
Now, lets move on.

SJ Camp said...

To All
This thread is only open to further biblical-worldview comment on the issue at hand.

All other comments will be deleted.

Am I clear?
Campi

gigantor1231 said...

S.J.

Not meaning to take things off task, rather thinking that what B.D. has continually been referring to, racism, social reform etc... is at the heart of what the Obama Presidency will force upon the citizens of this country! The question is will we stand up to this and proclaim what is truth? The answer of course is yes we can! Now we come to this dilemma though, will we proclaim worldly wisdom or the Gospel which is the power of God to salvation to those who believe.
We as Christians need to strategically come together and be united on how we do this. More than ever we need to know His word or the only thing we will do is fall into the same lock step that B.D. is enthralled and captivated in, the lock step of social reform. God has called us to something different, something higher and that is the battle for the souls of men and women. Until we understand that this is truly where the battle lies, a spiritual battle, we will just be spinning our wheels. Rush Limbaugh is a smart man, but I have never heard him herald this truth, the truth of the Gospel!

BlueDeacon said...

Rush Limbaugh is a smart man, but I have never heard him herald this truth, the truth of the Gospel!

On this one, believe it or not, I'm with gigantor123. While I understand that non-believers can someone "stumble onto" some basic Biblical truths, I simply cannot understand how they can exhibit a consistent Biblical worldview; in fact, Scripture says that's not even possible sans the Holy Spirit.

That said, I reject the idea that "salvation" is the only issue here; most of the Scripture tells us what to do and how to act once we're saved. God calls us Christians not simply to proclaim His Word but to live it -- to develop our character and have Him permeate every fiber of our being so that not only can we ward off personal sin but so that, collectively, we can display "the more excellent way" to a fallen world. For that reason, if this is done correctly social reform is inevitable; God Himself has said just what changes will take place. Especially those of us of the Reformed persuasion believe that Jesus is absolute, unconditional LORD of every second, inch and ounce of life -- including THIS life.

SJ Camp said...

blue
The real issue that Rush was dealing with here by using a touch of sarcasm, is the sheer hypocrisy and double-speak that comes from the political left continually.

I agree that Jesus is Lord of every inch of our lives - and that includes the sanctity of human life. I thought Rick Warren's follow up question to Obama during his forum was brlliant: "have you ever voted to save the life of an unborn child?"

Answer? Nothing but crickets.

Our only hope is the gospel - not politics. But, when we apply the standard of the gospel to every area of our lives, including politics, then real change can be effected.

BlueDeacon said...

The real issue that Rush was dealing with here by using a touch of sarcasm, is the sheer hypocrisy and double-speak that comes from the political left continually.

With all due respect, I've seen that even more so from the right, starting especially with its ultimate goal of power for its own sake masquerading as "limited government," for the last 30 years (I don't have time here to get into the history of all that). That was exposed for all to see during the Clinton years, and it's basically why conservatives lost in the last two election cycles and won't return to power anytime soon. Rush will never say that, of course, and probably can't even bring himself to admit it.

Humberto said...

And if I may, I would also add that a very true and present danger is found when politicians turn politics into a popular religion of sorts, such as the left also continuously does and always has done. We see this when they start taking it's rhetoric right out of the church in saying that it will help the poor, heal the sick, save the earth and so forth. Biblically and historically we know that whenever the church adheres to this and places the poor and social movements ahead of its pursuit of the knowledge of God it perishes. Bluedeacon's recipe for renewal of the church is a recipe of death for the church.

gigantor1231 said...

Humberto, B.D., S.J.

Let's put it all in perspective, it all is God's, men, parties, governments, all of it. He calls, commands us to be saved through His son Jesus Christ because, we are called to bow on bended knee and submit ourselves to Him. In so doing we become his slave, his tool to do the good works that He has designed for us, anything apart from this is futile in every way because apart from Him we can do nothing. Salvation is everything, it is the only thing that will change the nature of a man with a dead cold stony heart, salvation through Christ is the only hope for all, for those who are not saved it is absolutely the only thing! If this is not our message, our focus, our goal, for all to know Him then we fail in our mission.

BlueDeacon said...

Biblically and historically we know that whenever the church adheres to this and places the poor and social movements ahead of its pursuit of the knowledge of God it perishes. Bluedeacon's recipe for renewal of the church is a recipe of death for the church.

One, that's not even close to my argument. Two, my own blatantly evangelical (CMA, to be exact) church is involved in social movements, including serving the poor, up the wazoo (so to speak), but it's by far the theologically strongest church in my city doing so. We do this in obedience to the Holy Spirit, and as a result our deacons' fund is overflowing. For a number of reasons most conservative churches with "good theology" often look down on the people we assist, but half of the testimonies during our annual Thanksgiving service are about folks staying clean and sober from drugs and alcohol. We witness families being reconciled and all the other good stuff folks say should be happening

And I'll tell you what: A little over a generation ago our church, even though it was "conservative," was insular, shrinking ... and overtly racist. The LORD Himself had to clean out those bad attitudes out so that we could do ministry -- and not only were people saved and discipled in a classic sense, but we began to reach the largely black and poor neighborhood where it's located. As a result, the church began to grow like crazy; today, we have four packed weekend services, one on Saturdays.

So don't anyone tell me that "social reform" hurts the preaching of the Gospel -- I see the refutation of that every single week. As I will continue to insist, the Gospel executed correctly causes social reform.

P.R.E.Z. said...

See what happens when I leave? All kinds of silliness breaks out. :-)

Seriously though, I don't believe anyone said anything about having to be republican to be Christian. That is some nonsense BD pulled out the side of his neck.

What I will say is that adhering to liberalism as a philosophy and the doctrine of Christ is impossible because liberalism is anti-Christ. I say that on the basis and foundation of scripture...but BD doesn't like to use scripture to support his position for some odd reason (which is worrisome in the very least) so that point is moot.

Why am I doing this? It's like watching a bad accident on the highway. You don't want to look but...

P.R.E.Z.
The Truth Manifesto

BlueDeacon said...

That is some nonsense BD pulled out the side of his neck.

You wish it were -- it has been in fact part and parcel of Christian involvement since the 1980s. In 1992 I attended the opening of the local Clinton/Gore presidential campaign headquarters; one of the women in the singles ministry of my church saw me on TV and said later, "I thought all Christians were Republicans!"

What I will say is that adhering to liberalism as a philosophy and the doctrine of Christ is impossible because liberalism is anti-Christ. I say that on the basis and foundation of scripture.

I can counter with specific passages which are at odds with modern conservatism. But that's not really the point.

P.R.E.Z. said...

You wish it were -- it has been in fact part and parcel of Christian involvement since the 1980s. In 1992 I attended the opening of the local Clinton/Gore presidential campaign headquarters; one of the women in the singles ministry of my church saw me on TV and said later, "I thought all Christians were Republicans!

Umm..I don't need to wish for anything. I have Jesus and that's enough.

That being said, you, as always, went on some rabbit trail that has nothing to do with what I said. I said no one here on this forum (think the inference was real clear on that BUT then again, your overpowering, all knowing, and all seeing intellect couldn't have missed it...wait...it DID miss it! Shock!) said that...unless this lady you met back in 1992 is on here. If you are ma'am, please speak up.....anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

She must be sleeping.

I can counter with specific passages which are at odds with modern conservatism. But that's not really the point.

Bravo!! You are correct. That wouldn't be the point...since I mentioned liberalism and not conservatism.

Please bear with me as I digress though...I ask in all deference to your mighty intellect...please give those scriptures that supposedly refute the beliefs of conservatism. I know us poor folk here don't know much of nothing, but if you can enlighten our feeble minds as a harbinger of divine truth, I'm sure we'll be much better for it.

P.R.E.Z.
The Truth Manifesto

BlueDeacon said...

Please bear with me as I digress though...I ask in all deference to your mighty intellect...please give those scriptures that supposedly refute the beliefs of conservatism.

You can start with the entire book of Isaiah, which in context condemns, among other things, exploitation of workers, the "good life," perversion of justice and ripping off the poor (way too many specific references to quote here, but my pastor preached through it in 1999-2000). Then you have the Sermon on the Mount, which I bring up because conservatives go around insulting people but go ballistic when someone dares criticize them.

From Philippians 2: 3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 4Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others. Conservatism cannot but ignore this scripture passage because its very nature is about getting yours at the expense of everyone else.

Let's start there -- I can find more with time.

It's interesting that a higher percentage of African-Americans than the general population are serious evangelical Christians yet also have always rejected the conservative agenda. Care to enlighten me as to why you think this is the case?

gigantor1231 said...

B.D.

Look, being a Christian is neither conservative or liberal, it is entirely other worldly in it's nature and scope. We are a chosen people, a peculiar people who have responded to a divine call to follow Jesus Christ as our Lord and Master, not only is He the sovereign but He is the absolute Lord over all, even if you do not make Him Lord. I would lean more to the conservative side rather than liberal because of issues such as the murder of the unborn, evolution and the origin of life, the protection of the innocent etc... how ever I do not consider myself conservative or liberal because both classifications are not what God has chosen for me, He has chosen me to be a Christian and that is what I am. Also, both classifications are terribly subjective in their definition and no can ever give a clear example of what they truly are, I will say this though, the vast majority of outspoken perverts and God haters seem to be involved in the democratic party and their leaders do not seem to be ashamed of promoting the destruction of Christianity, as I said though, both parties are contrived by man and both have their share of un-Godly problems!

As for the passages you quoted, you are very vague and non specific, I could point to a number of passages with out being specific and or pull them out of context all together and support the sin of polygamy, slavery etc.. you pick your poison. My point is that the way you handle the word of God and the things that you have said about it displays a real disrespect and even hatred towards it. It sounds as though you do not believe that it is even God's word, it sounds like you believe it is just a work of man about God, laws, history, poetry, etc... I mean you mock us because we kiss it's heinie right? Salvation through Christ being the scarlet thread that weaves it's way through the entire Word of God should be minimalised or disregarded all together according to some of your comments. Correct?
If we can not agree that salvation is the primary and essential need of all men, as the Bible relates from beginning to end either factually or figuratively, salvation is the "be all and end all" and if man is not saved He can do nothing apart from Christ. This is the crux of it all, if you do not have salvation then you might as well be anything you want because it is all false. Thank God He is real though and He came to save us from our sins, and to His glory He accomplished exactly what He set out to do.

P.R.E.Z. said...

From Philippians 2: 3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 4Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.

Well...I can see know why you don't quote scripture. You take it out of context. And...all together now...a text taken out of context becomes a...pretext! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!

This passage is not talking about government whatsoever. It's talking about the body of Christ and how we should behave in conduct towards others as individuals, something that seems to have escaped you this whole conversation in your tone and actions towards everyone on this topic...but I digress (yeah, I've been facetious the last couple of posts but cut us ole uneducated folks some slack).

This is talking about how service to others as individuals should be our attitude and specifically to one another as brothers and sisters in the Lord. Has nothing to do with government. The context of the verse which you conveniently omitted is tied to verses 5-8 which talks about Christ and Him being the ultimate example for how we should serve.

Conservatism cannot but ignore this scripture passage because its very nature is about getting yours at the expense of everyone else.

I don't know what you THINK conservatism is, but that's not what it is at all.

Conservatism, as an ideology, is about about working hard for what you have, adhering to biblical values and principles, a tenet that scripture is rife with. But hey...don't take my word for it:

He that tilleth his land shall have plenty of bread; But he that followeth after vain persons is void of understanding. (Proverbs 12:11)

In all labor there is profit; But the talk of the lips tendeth only to penury. (Proverbs 14:23)

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, whither thou goest. (Eccl. 9:10)

On and on and...

It's interesting that a higher percentage of African-Americans than the general population are serious evangelical Christians yet also have always rejected the conservative agenda. Care to enlighten me as to why you think this is the case?

Oh Mylanta. Someone has some SERIOUS historical blinders on.

Check the pecs (does a muscular pose):

My grandfather, Dr. Martin Luther King, Sr., or “Daddy King”, was a Republican and father of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. who was a Republican. (Doh!)

Daddy King influenced a reported
100,000 black voters to cast previously Republican votes for
Senator Kennedy even though Kennedy had voted against the 1957
Civil Rights Law. Mrs. King had
appealed to Kennedy and Nixon to help her husband, and Nixon who had voted for the 1957 Civil Rights Law did not respond. At the urging of his advisors, Kennedy
made a politically calculated phone
call to Mrs. King, who was pregnant
at the time, bringing the attention of the nation to Dr. King’s plight.

Moved by Mrs. King’s gratitude for
Senator Kennedy’s intervention,
Daddy King was very grateful to Senator Kennedy for his assistance
in rescuing Dr. King, Jr. from a life threatening jail encounter. This experience led to a black exodus from the Republican Party.

Thus, this one simple act of gratitude caused black America to quickly forget that the Republican Party was birthed in America as the antislavery party to end the scourge of slavery and combat the terror of racism and segregation. They quickly forgot that the Democratic Party was the party of the Ku Klux Klan.


Excerpt from Dr. Alveda C. King, niece of...yeah...you guessed it...Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. But hey..what the heck does she know? She was only there.

So in answer to your question...umm...uhh...IGNORANCE comes to mind...yeah.

All that being said is neither here nor there. The fact of the matter is what does an individual stand for AND does it line up with scripture. Obama is the most liberal of liberals and has beliefs that are in direction contradiction to scripture. Hence, and this is me saying this, his fruit is stinking and I don't believe he truly knows what it means to be saved. He may be religious but a follower of the gospel...I have STRONG doubts. Aww shoot...I just may as well go ahead and say it....I don't think the dude is saved.

There! Whew! Glad I got THAT off my chest.

But again, that's just me talking. I don't have a heaven or hell to put him in. God will deal with that. If I'm right then I'm praying for him to get saved. If I'm wrong...WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE GET THAT BOY A BIBLE!

BlueDeacon said...

This passage is not talking about government whatsoever. It's talking about the body of Christ and how we should behave in conduct towards others as individuals, something that seems to have escaped you this whole conversation in your tone and actions towards everyone on this topic...

But by inference, it also talks about how we should regard other people not of the faith. And no, it is not simply talking about individuals -- that would have been foreign to Paul's Middle Eastern audience; to this day that culture maintains a collective/community mindset.

Conservatism, as an ideology, is about about working hard for what you have, adhering to biblical values and principles, a tenet that scripture is rife with.

Sorry, but a lot of people consider that garbage. Conservatism in practice gives permission to take from the poor and give to the rich, to hoard resources and power for the sake of class promotion and to cause division for the sake of authority. (Pat Buchanan will tell you all about that.)

As for your comments about King and Kennedy, you have to consider the times. At that time JFK was desperately trying to straddle the fence between the civil-rights supporters in the North and the opponents in the South, all Democrats, but as he eventually sat down with RFK they concluded, according to Time magazine, that the South will "never reform." And it was President Johnson who eventually signed those bills into law, saying in the process, "I have just lost the South for a generation."

Going further, don't forget that Barry Goldwater, the Republican presidential candidate in 1964, opposed civil rights legislation (because he didn't think the feds should be involved) -- but in doing so he began to steer Southern racists into the GOP. Ronald Reagan kicked off his 1980 presidential campaign in Neshoba County, Miss., where the three civil-rights workers were murdered in 1964, and said that he supported "states rights" -- a code word for enforced segregation -- and a Grand Dragon of the KKK in Georgia endorsed him, saying that "the Republican platform could have been written by a Klansman." There's more about the conservative takeover of the GOP that I could say, but it's late.

Humberto said...

Bluedeacon, you base your beliefs on personal experience. Time and again you've proven your points with what you've seen in your church, and what you've seen conservatives do to the blacks and the poor. These are not valid reasons to anyone on this blog and they can extensively be disputed. By experience, I can also talk about an incredible show of violent racism and hate coming from minorities who on the same account would also argue they're Christians. We could discuss for a long time the horrendous effects this liberation theology you champion has had on minorities in this country and others. But that's not important. Jesus rebuked the disciples for your same arguments when they complained about the woman anointing him with an expensive ointment. They argued it could've been donated to the poor, but Jesus placed more importance in the woman's worship of Him than the needs of the poor (Mark 14:3-9). Similarly Jesus taught Martha that her choice of serving the needs of others was not a better choice than Mary had done by sitting and listening to Jesus' teachings (Luke 10:38-42). Christians are commanded to take care of the poor, but never above in importance of the study of the Word. You want to feed the poor? Then we need to teach Theology to the church. You want to spiritually revive the inner cities? It can only be a product of a sound doctrine in the church.
You want to stop racism and oppression? It will not be done through the lukewarm mix of socialism and the Bible.
You argue conservatism takes from the poor and gives to the rich. I argue that the left wants to impoverish the rich without helping the poor. You mention that in your church Thanksgiving is filled with testimonies of the ones who stopped being addicts, and I tell you that's not proof of salvation. Rehabs and therapy groups do the same thing without the gospel. The purpose of the church is not to make our lives better on this earth. Addiction free. It is to work for the spiritual salvation of souls and prepare them for eternity. There are many good, moral people that will end up in hell. Your racial experiences and background is not going to help at all someone in need of repentance. I propose something to you. Let's move the discussion out of race and politicians, and let's prove our points through verses. After all, I'm assuming you're a Christian because of a knowledge of the Word of God and not due to political and racial or social interests. Prove to me Biblically that abortion should not be more of a priority to the Christian than caring for the poor when at the ballot box. Prove Biblically that Homosexuality should not be above the economical status of a person when considering your vote. Prove Biblically that putting your racial concerns first and Theology second is a mandate from God and not man's.

BlueDeacon said...

Bluedeacon, you base your beliefs on personal experience. Time and again you've proven your points with what you've seen in your church, and what you've seen conservatives do to the blacks and the poor. These are not valid reasons to anyone on this blog and they can extensively be disputed.

Be advised, however, that they mirror the experiences of almost all African-Americans -- and when I say almost all, that's exactly what I mean; you would know this if you talked to them on a consistent basis. The fact that conservatives dismiss them out of hand is one reason why there's a rift -- when it comes to such things conservatives, for the most part, are ignorant and apathetic.

You want to feed the poor? Then we need to teach Theology to the church. You want to spiritually revive the inner cities? It can only be a product of a sound doctrine in the church.

Please -- my childhood church had sound doctrine but did absolutely nothing with it because the only issue was "sound doctrine." But when you actually go into the world and start ministering, you start seeing things you didn't know were there. That's why the staff at my church would simply laugh at your comments -- they're actually in the trenches engaged in spiritual warfare, and the "theology" has adjusted in the process. A former pastor at a former church (both were somewhat liberal) said correctly that "the Bible is something you do."

Let's move the discussion out of race and politicians, and let's prove our points through verses.

I'm not going to do that because, no matter what side, those passages will be taken out of context. I don't subscribe to soundbite theology that's based on prooftexting; everything has to be considered as a whole.

Prove to me Biblically that abortion should not be more of a priority to the Christian than caring for the poor when at the ballot box. Prove Biblically that Homosexuality should not be above the economical status of a person when considering your vote. Prove Biblically that putting your racial concerns first and Theology second is a mandate from God and not man's.

Abortion isn't in the Bible, thank you; in fact, even Orthodox Jews don't make a big stink about it because according to Mosaic law to prove crimes you have to have at least two witnesses and the accuser must participate in the execution. As for homosexuality, it's mentioned in the Scripture only half a dozen times, in every case as part of a catalogue of sins that reflect ultimate rebellion against God and and thus merely identified as something His people shouldn't be involved in. (There are zero exceptions to this.) And as for racial concerns, take note that in Acts 6 there were problems between cultural groups that needed to be addressed, and the context of that passage makes clear that there was a long-standing rift between them.

P.R.E.Z. said...

Humberto! I'm surprised at you! How dare you use logic and reason, coupled with the Word of God to state an argument of Truth. These things are outdated, archaic ways to win souls and persuade hearers. The text of the Bible is simply not enough! To even assume that is a rank offense of the highest disorder. If this were another time, I would suggest you be flogged for saying such a thing!

BD, almighty knowing one. Please forgive my brother. He knows not what he does. Apparently he will not see the error of his ways and it doesn't appear as if your light can pierce the dark abyss of ALL of our hearts. It's not to say that your light is not strong enough. On the contrary. Our understanding has been darkened and our ignorance is just too comfortable to let go.

If I may suggest, oh flawless leader, stand in our presence no more until we've grasped the depths of your truth. Then we can join with you in spreading your brilliant lite of understanding and wisdom (see...I can't even spell light right. Woe is me!!!!).

P.R.E.Z.
The Truth Manifesto

BlueDeacon said...

P.R.E.Z. -- Droll, very droll. We'll see what happens when we all get to the judgment and find out for sure what God's priorities really were. I seriously doubt that you'll be so sarcastic then.

Humberto said...

Then we might be coming to a stop. If you are not interested in convincing us with the only authority we hold true, which is the Bible, then I say your postings have only one purpose and that is to hurt and to avenge your racial experience. I can only take what you've written so far as a mere attack with the purpose of damaging and nothing more.
As for the Bible "being something you do", your pastor is dangerously mistaken. The Bible is the story of redemption, or reconciliation of fallen man and holy God. You cannot "do" the Knowledge of God, you cannot "do" Jesus dying on the cross, you cannot "do" faith, sanctification, etc. Romans 3 says that nothing we "do" is good.
And my friend, abortion is not a new sin. It is murder. It is the killing at the beginning of human life. Murder is condemned in the Bible in a very harsh way.
To judge homosexuality, don't base your idea on how many times a sin is written in the Bible. Base it on the judgement God assigns to it. Look up in the old testament and you will find that it is called an abomination and in Leviticus you'll find that the people of Israel as a social group were not allowed to tolerate it, but instead when they knew of such behavior, they were to punish it by death, with no chance or repentance or cleansing of both persons involved.
And as for Acts 6, my friend, when the problem you speak of boiled over, the apostles gathered together and the first thing they said was:"it is not right that we should give up preaching the word of God to serve tables" (Acts 6:2). Attending the needy cannot replace the word, or take priority over it.

gigantor1231 said...

B.D., P.R.E.Z., Humberto

'they mirror the experiences of almost all African-Americans -- and when I say almost all, that's exactly what I mean'

Shaking head!
This is classic Bluedeacon, also it was a technique that Hitler employed, tell a lie so large and repeat it so many times that it actually takes on a life of it's own and appears to be real? B.D. you must think we are fools or, if you believe that you have actually spoken to the majority of African Americans then you are deluded! I will be generous and assume that you have spoken to 1% of all A.A.'s, you base your conclusion on a negligible amount, 99% remain and you have no idea what they think or believe... then again perhaps you are truly all knowing.
I am willing to wait to get to heaven to see the outcome, however I will pray to Christ that God has mercy on you.

Psalm said...
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BlueDeacon said...

Psalm -- If you remember, there's a whole lot more in the Scripture than laws against "killing." Unless things have changed in the past few days, which I doubt, the First Commandment warns against idolatry -- and all of the other nine Commandments must be interpreted in the context of that first one.

Psalm said...
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Psalm said...
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SJ Camp said...

blue
Did you ever formally apologize for your previous remark against the Lord? Did I miss this somehow? If you haven't done so, do do immediately. If you won't, then consider yourself banned.

Make it right.
Steve

SJ Camp said...

bluedeacon
Consider yourself banned from this site for disparaging and unapologetic remarks directed about the Lord Jesus Christ.

Steve

roadwolf said...

Ummm, Steve, am I missing something here?

Here is his last comment...

"Psalm -- If you remember, there's a whole lot more in the Scripture than laws against "killing." Unless things have changed in the past few days, which I doubt, the First Commandment warns against idolatry -- and all of the other nine Commandments must be interpreted in the context of that first one."

Or are you referring to something else, because, quite honestly, I just don't get "it".

I don't get your assertion that he offended Jesus here. Please clarify so I can understand why you are banning him from your blog. Would like to know what you are thinking here.

And to Rick... hope to see you around elsewhere, dude. Keep your chin up.

Stan McCullars said...

roadwolf,
bluedeacon referred to Jesus as a jerk in a previous comment which has now been deleted. Steve and several others called him on it and he refused to retract the statement but rather gave (what appeared to be) a weak explanation for his use of the term in reference to Jesus. Steve gave him a couple of chances to apologize which he refused.