Wednesday, January 21, 2009

THIS IS THE KIND OF BIBLICAL PRAYER THAT GOD HONORS
...a prayer for President Obama by Dr. Al Mohler

updated



The Problem with Pastor Rick's Warren Prayer
There has been much posted around the blogosphere about Pastor Rick Warren's ecumenical prayer yesterday. Did he invoke the name of Jesus as he promised? Barely; and with all the conviction that playing politics with God could muster, Mr. Purpose Driven watered-down his prayer, tickling the ears of Washington's most illustrious dignitaries, dolling out the spiritual pablum suited to satisfy religious leaders of postmodernty, and craving the approval of the massive hoi polloi. Pastor Warren simply forgot that prayer is not about us, it is all about Him; it not first and foremost about our needs, but about His glory. IOW, Pastor Warren forgot to be a pastor (2 Tim. 4:1-5).

For example: Pastor Warren states that only the Father has created all things and all things exist only because of Him. It is true that "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth..." But the Holy Spirit through the superintending instrument of the Apostle Paul and the writer of Hebrews has also clearly stated in Col. 1:15-18 AND Heb. 1:1-3 that
"by Him [Jesus] all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." 
"but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed the heir of all things, through whom also He created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of His nature, and He upholds the universe by the word of His power."
OR when Pastor Warren calls Jesus by the Muslim name 'Isa that refers not to the perfect, sinless, resurrected God-Man of the Bible, but to the impotent, deficient Jesus of the Quran? OR when Pastor Warren tries to apply the Shema to all peoples of all nations of the earth?; OR when Pastor Warren uses the repetitive phrase of "compassionate and merciful one" from the Quran as the opening to his prayer confusing that with the reality of James 5:11? OR that God loves everybody equally, just as they are, absent of the regenerative power of the gospel? OR, the most risible of statements, that "Martin Luther King is shouting from heaven with a great cloud of witnesses" because of Obama being elected as President? Does Pastor Warren actually believe that the saints who are in heaven cease from shouting "worthy is the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the earth..." - the eternal praise due to Christ Jesus the Lord alone to actually shout with all the redeemed from all the ages past shouts of joy and praise because of Barack Obama was being sworn in to the office of the Presidency of the United States of America? And that somehow a righting of racial equality to the highest political office in the land now trumps divine glory of the One-Triune God?

Blasphemous and balderdash!


The Blessing of Dr. Al Mohler's Prayer
But thank the Lord for a man of God like Dr. Al Mohler who is not afraid to speak the truth unashamedly and will not play politics with prayer or God's Word. I would greatly encourage you to read the following prayer below that he has written. It is masterful; biblical; compassionate; truthful; uncompromised; practical; and worshipful. May it encourage you each day to pray for our new President with humility, charity, truthfulness, and grace - and to do so knowing you are praying by the authority of heaven.

Thank you Al for being one evangelical leader and Christian public figure who fears the approval of God more than seeks the applause of men.

Steve 

"Our Father, Lord of all creation, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ: We pray today with a sense of special urgency and responsibility. We come before you to pray for our new President, Barack Obama, and for all those in this new administration who now assume roles of such high responsibility.

We know that you and you alone are sovereign; that you rule over all, and that you alone are able to keep and defend us. We know that our times are in your hands, and that "the king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord" [Proverbs 21:1]. Our confidence is in you and in you alone. We come before you as a people who acknowledge our constant need for your provision, wisdom, and protection.

Father, we pray today for Barack Obama as he takes office as President of the United States. We pray that you will show the glory of your name in our times and in these days, confounding the wisdom of the wise, thwarting the plans of the arrogant, and vindicating those who do justice and practice righteousness.

Father, we pray with thanksgiving for the gift of government and the grace of civic order. Thank you for giving us rulers and for knowing our need for laws and ordered life together. Thank you for this nation and the blessings we know as its citizens. Thank you for freedoms unprecedented in human history. We understand that these freedoms come with unprecedented opportunities.

Lord, we pray with thanksgiving for the joy and celebration reflected on millions of faces who never expected to look to the President of the United States and see a person who looks like themselves. Father, thank you for preserving this nation to the moment when an African-American citizen will take the oath of office and become our President. Thank you for the hope this has given to so many, the pride emerging in hearts that had known no such hope, and the pride that comes to a people who have experienced such pain at the hands of fellow citizens, simply because of the color of their skin. Father, we rejoice in every elderly face that reflects such long-sought satisfaction and in every young face that expresses such unrestrained joy. May this become an open door for a vision of race and human dignity that reflects your glory in our differences, and not our corruption of your gift.

Father, protect this president, we pray. We pray that you will surround this president and his family, along with all our leaders, with your protection and sustenance. May he be protected from evil acts and evil intentions, and may his family be protected from all evil and harm.

We pray that the Obama family will be drawn together as they move into the White House, and that they will know great joy in their family life. We are thankful for the example Barack and Michelle Obama have set as parents. Father, protect those precious girls in every way -- including the protection of their hearts as they see their father often criticized and as he is away from them on business of state. May their years in the White House bring them all even closer together.

Father, we pray for the safety and security of this nation, even as our new president settles into his role as Commander in Chief. We know that you and you alone can be our defense. We do not place our trust in horses or chariots, and we pray that you will give this president wisdom as he fulfills this vital responsibility.

Father, grant him wisdom in every dimension of his vast responsibility. Grant him wisdom to deal with a global financial crisis and with the swirling complex of vexing problems and challenges at home and abroad. May he inspire this nation to a higher vision for our common life together, to a higher standard of justice, righteousness, unity, and the tasks of citizenship.

Father, we pray that you will change this president's heart and mind on issues of urgent concern. We are so thankful for his gifts and talents, for his intellect and power of influence. Father, bend his heart to see the dignity and sanctity of every single human life, from the moment of conception until natural death. Father, lead him to see abortion, not as a matter of misconstrued rights, but as a murderous violation of the right to life. May he come to see every aborted life as a violation of human dignity and every abortion as an abhorrent blight upon this nation's moral witness. May he pledge himself to protect every human life at every stage of development. He has declared himself as an energetic defender of abortion rights, and we fear that his election will lead directly to the deaths of countless unborn human beings. Protect us from this unspeakable evil, we pray. Most urgently, we pray that you will bring the reign of abortion to an end, even as you are the defender of the defenseless.

Father, may this new president see that human dignity is undermined when human embryos are destroyed in the name of medical progress, and may he see marriage as an institution that is vital to the very survival of civilization. May he protect all that is right and good. Father, change his heart where it must be changed, and give him resolve where his heart is right before you.

Father, when we face hard days ahead -- when we find ourselves required by conscience to oppose this president within the bounds of our roles as citizens -- may we be granted your guidance to do so with a proper spirit, with a proper demeanor, and with persuasive arguments. May we learn anew how to confront without demonizing, and to oppose without abandoning hope.

Father, we are aware that our future is in your hands, and we are fully aware that you and you alone will judge the nations. Much responsibility is now invested in President Barack Obama, and much will be required. May we, as Christian citizens, also fulfill what you would require of us. Even as we pray for you to protect this president and change his heart, we also pray that your church will be protected and that you will conform our hearts to your perfect will.

Father, we pray these things in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, the ever-reigning once and future King, the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. He and he alone can save, and his kingdom is forever. Above all, may your great name be praised. Amen."

Christians are, first of all, citizens of a heavenly kingdom. The followers of Christ know no allegiance of ultimate rank to any government or earthly authority. Yet, the Bible clearly teaches that God has given us the gifts of law, government, and ruling authorities for our good. We are instructed to pray for "rulers and all who have authority" and to be faithful in praying "so that we can have quiet and peaceful lives full of worship and respect for God" [1 Timothy 2:2].

As Barack Obama prepares to take the oath of office and become the 44th President of the United States, Christians should be thinking about how to pray for the new President. I offer this prayer as a place to start, as we observe the inauguration of the 44th President of the United States together. -Dr. Al Mohler

85 comments:

Deb_B said...

Reading the inaugural day prayer Dr. Mohler posted yesterday morning was/is both edifying and an immeasurable blessing.

I am long weary of the tendency of far too many evangelicals to reduce our faith to the lowest perceived common denominator possible ... ere they offend the masses.

Dr. Mohler's prayer is uncompromising, faithful to contextual Scripture and, most especially, God-honoring. This is indeed a man who rightly fears the thrice-holy God.

Kevin in Manila said...

Steve, I have much love and respect for you and your ministry. You've influenced me as no other musician has, especially during my formative (teenage) years. I often went to your concerts in Cullman, AL (remember those?).

But I must confess, I'm getting a little weary of the Warren-bashing posts.

If you want to post Mohler's prayer, great! I have much respect for him, too. But did it have to be prefaced with an attack on Warren?

SJ Camp said...

Kevin
Thank you for your kind words.

I am not bashing Warren. I am only trying to measure his words and beliefs through the lens of Scripture. Btw, I wrote a wonderful piece a few months ago in praise of Warren. I got criticized highly for it; but I don't play favorites here or politics.

Again, thank you for your words and constructive thoughts about Warren and these posts.

Grace to you,
Steve

SJ Camp said...

Psalm
Warren is not being bashed here; BUT he is being held accountable. He should be. He is a pastor and did not honor the Lord Jesus Christ nor his pastoral charge of 2 Tim. 4:1-5.

So am I to interpret that you approved of his prayer?

calvinistbychoice said...

This is a genuine question... why was his prayer ecumenical? Because he said God loves everyone? Just wondering!

SJ Camp said...

Psalm
Respectfully, you are incorrect here in your assessment.

I will say nothing of his prayer. Prayer is sacred, between he and his master, no other. It is finished, to speak of it is gossip.

Not true when that prayer is public and representing the Lord Jesus Christ as a Christian pastor before millions of people. And that prayer is held accountable to the test of Scripture as all our words would be - including this blog or even a sermon.

It is not gossip to speak of it. It is being Berean to measure all things according to God's Word.

SJ Camp said...

calvinistbychoice
why was his prayer ecumenical?

Because he made statements of God's blessing, acceptance and love of us absent of salvation through Christ. His appeal was not on truth, but on tone.

Let us remember again, prayer is not for the people - it is for God. It is sacred and should be treated as such. Warren made it political rather than biblical. He wanted to be accepted by all... Poor motive for public prayer.

Lastly, he mentions nothing of calling America to repentance from sin nor the holocaust - the infanticide of abortion. How can one play politics with the murder of millions of unborn children is beyond me.

Bill said...

Good post Campi.

I didn't think you were being harsh on Warren. Just letting your yes be yes and your no be no.

I really appreciated Dr. Mohler's prayer. THAT prayer should have been prayed yesterday and not the shallow one that Pastor Rick prayed.

Bill

gigantor1231 said...

S.J.

Warren's prayer was predictable! No shock here. He denies Christ His due because he does not want to offend anyone. Everything Rick does is tailored for the world to tickle itching ears because he is a man of the world. He thinks Obama is brilliant for choosing a man who is a purveyor of perversion

"[Obama] has again demonstrated his genuine commitment to bringing all Americans of goodwill together in search of common ground. I applaud his desire to be the president of every citizen."

If this man is a shepherd of sheep then he is remiss in his duties because he just commended a wolf in sheep's clothing! Think of the multitudes that he has mislead and will continue to mislead because no one will call him what he is, a false teacher. Rick Warren's name and face are becoming so familiar, his teaching so common and accepted that, while one should not make it a preoccupation, the warning needs to be declared about him as long as he is active, so others might not be deceived.

Tak178 said...

That is a prayer.

A priest of Christ must speak the truth unabashedly. Praise be to God.

theoldadam said...

Rick Warren's church (Saddleback) is built on being non-offensive.

Before he opened it he did a survey of folks in the area and found out what they didn't like about church. he then threw all that stuff out.

His kind of Christianity is not counter-cultural but rather is totally cultural. There is no dying going on over there. It's all about your comfort.

When it comes to the things of God the culture gets it wrong every time.

Sorry, that's just the way it is.

gigantor1231 said...

psalm

Pr. 24: 10-12

"10 If you faint in the day of adversity,
your strength is small.
11  Rescue those who are being taken away to death;
hold back those who are stumbling to the slaughter.
12 If you say, “Behold, we did not know this,”
 does not he who weighs the heart perceive it?
Does not he who keeps watch over your soul know it,
and will he not repay man according to his work?"

While it is true that lack of communication is part of what causes sectarianism, allowing error to persist for the sake of unity is the chief cause. We as Christians need to shout a warning when men pervert Christ's Gospel and that is what Warren has done, not to mention that he applauds others that do as well ie. Robinson!
If we allow others to be lead to slaughter by closing our mouth when we see error then we will have God to answer to because He has called us to speak the truth in Love. I will not watch others be lead to death because truth disturbs perceived unity. Rick Warren's teachings need to be exposed so those that are deceived by Him have a chance to hear the Gospel in all it's purity. As I am called to do in Jude 3 I will 'contend earnestly for the faith'. Jeremiah 20: 9

SJ Camp said...

G-Man
Well said my brother. Thank you.
Campi

SJ Camp said...

Tak
I agree. Amen!

theoldadam
Excellent words and taxonomy of Warren's worldview in ministry. Pragmatism is a poor foundation when establishing a local church.

Psalm
Your application of Matt. 18 is wrong here. Warren hasn't sinned against me personally. He made public statements about our faith and Lord that are skewed or not true. We may hold him accountable to those same words in the same public arena.

You also believe that too. You didn't come to me privately, but posted your disagreement with me here publicly for all to read - which I agree with.

Steve
Col. 1:9-14

donsands said...

"Lord, we pray with thanksgiving for the joy and celebration reflected on millions of faces who never expected to look to the President of the United States and see a person who looks like themselves. Father, thank you for preserving this nation to the moment when an African-American citizen will take the oath of office and become our President."

Thats where the joy ends for me. Obama seems humble, but he also is pro-partial brith abortion, and pro-infanticide.
These two just don't seem to coexist. Somethings wrong.

Dr. Mohler's prayer comes from his heart, and his theology.
Rick Warren's prayer does the same.

donsands said...

Oh, I meant to say, I was very blessed by Al Mohler's prayer, and not so much by Rick's.

SJ Camp said...

donsends
Thats where the joy ends for me. Obama seems humble, but he also is pro-partial brith abortion, and pro-infanticide. These two just don't seem to coexist. Somethings wrong.

That is absolutely correct. More than humility - he claims to be a Christian. Can a truly born again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ support then the barbaric kinds of abortion that he does including the most non compos mentis of live abortion?

Thanks my brother for your insights here.
Steve

SJ Camp said...

Psalm
I appreciate your thoughts here; but you keep missing the point. This isn't Warren bashing it is bringing the corrective to what Warren has said unbiblically in his crafted prayer.

Let me ask you a question: when Warren misrepresents the Lord Jesus Christ like he has in this prayer; attributes to Him attributes or actions that are not biblical; and has not properly invoked the name of Jesus as well - do you consider that Jesus bashing by Warren?

Just curious. Are you more offended by me holding him accountable by addressing his words biblically in a public media venue to which he has initially communicated in a similar (but much larger) public media venue; OR are you more offended of Rick's words that have wrongly represented the character, person, name and ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ?

Grace and peace to you,
Steve
Col. 1:9-14

cyd said...

Psalm,

Which is more offensive to you: the fact that we are discussing a carefully constructed "prayer" made by a man for the entire world to access which betrayed the ONLY Name under heaven by which we must be saved; the one true Messiah, Jesus Christ, the Righteous King of kings and LORD of lords, or the fact that we are discussing America's "pastor" in an unfavorable light?

Imagine if a world renown Muslim leader stood in front of the masses Tuesday and delivered a heady, ecumenical prayer and ended it by mentioning the name of Jesus Messiah along with Allah? There would be an immediate global uproar like we cannot imagine. However, such a thing would never happen. Those dear people are far too loyal to their religious beliefs to ever allow such a thing to occur. And yet, many Christians are more eager to protect Warren and his "prayer" that included all varieties of Jesus rather than being grieved that he missed the opportunity of a lifetime to tell the world that it is time to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ!!
That is a horrendous compromise, in my opinion.

Wouldn't you agree, Psalm?

Acts 4:12

Cindy

SJ Camp said...

To All
I have updated the main post in order to clarify and show specifically my concerns over Pastor Warren's prayer.

Steve

Deb_B said...

Rick Warren's Inaugural prayer was reminiscent of Mr. Facing-Both-Ways in John Bunyan's epic allegorical classic.

A little more than 48 hours hence have done little to change my initial perception of Warren's inaugural prayer, which I noted in commentary elsewhere yesterday:

...A tightrope-walking, popular pastor who wanted to remain faithful to his calling whilst concurrently crafting a prayer as unoffensive to the masses as possible. He wanted it both ways.

The problems with that are legion.

... Rick Warren, a pastor of some years now, knows the difference between a straightforward, God-honoring public prayer and a non-offensive, nebulous wattle of whatever with a few Christian bones woven in after he'd flayed all the real meat therefrom ... so as to be ... non-offensive to the masses.

Coram Deo said...

Campi,

What's your view, in the light of scripture, for the arguments being raised by some who call for bestowing maledictions and imprecatory prayers upon Obama personally?

Pray Obama Fails

Please understand this isn't a "set up", I'm sincerely interested in your thoughts on the subject.

In Christ,
CD

SJ Camp said...

Psalm
Again, I appreciate your words, but your conclusions I will respectively disagree with as to methods.

I didn't blow off Kevin; I disagreed with him and there is a difference.

Thank you again for sharing your words here.
Steve

gigantor1231 said...

Psalm

I do not know who you are because you have ignored the rules of this blog and neglected to post a profile. This aside, however, Steve has been gracious and allowed you to continue to post with out any challenge. As of recent you have chosen to communicate in a manner other than verse, poetry or what ever it is you are trying to communicate, you have some complaint about the content of the material that Steve is posting, especially material that would expose Warren's heretical and compromising teachings. Did you catch that? Warren's heretical teaching and compromise! Steve has not bashed the man, he has been pointing out false teaching and making others aware.
When individuals choose to gut the most important element, the heart of the Word of God, the Gospel, they should be challenged, stood up to. Here is what God's Word says on the issue;

Galatians 1: 6-10

"6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
10 For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ."

So, your accusation as well as Kevin's is without warrant because Steve has not bashed Rick at all, he has simply pointed out his egregious errors, in other words he has done what he is supposed to to do.
How about you Psalm, what is it that you are doing. If you are accusing Steve then perhaps what you should to is take him to the scriptures and show him where he is in error! Make sure you are careful though, bring a defense that is in context of what the Word of God is actually saying or you may get corrected and asked to try again.
I also see from what you have said that you have chosen to proclaim or place hope in the same social gospel that Warren is propagating.

'It has long been my hope that both Jew and Christian would stand together against the atrocities of this world and I hope the things happening around us now will make it clear, that time has come.'

Until Israel comes to their messiah, the same messiah that has been given to the whole world, Jesus Christ, there will be no address of atrocities in the world because the chief atrocity has yet to be rectified, the atrocity of Israel rejecting their messiah and savior Jesus Christ. Until that happens there will be no true unity, perhaps a temporary worldly unity but it will not be lasting because Jesus Christ is the only one who can bring freedom for a true and lasting unity. Do you believe this Psalm? Is Jesus Christ your messiah, is He the only savior for the entire world? If you believe He is the only One then you have to understand that this is offensive to both Israel and all other nations that choose not to follow Him. So, where do you stand Psalm? You can not be a true servant of the Lord and deny Him on one hand and then try to serve Him on the other. This is what Warren does, for the sake of being non offensive! So either you stand with Jesus Christ the one and only living God, or, as Warren does, you stand in pseudo unity with the rest of the world.

gigantor1231 said...

Psalm (David)

'Jesus is a Jew, You are a Christian.'

Yes, He is a Jew and He came to His people first, Israel, and they rejected Him, So He says;

Rom. 10: 18-21 (O.T. References Ps. 19: 4; Deut. 32: 21; Is. 65: 1, 2)

"18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;
“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.”
19 But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says,
“I will make you jealous by that which is not a nation,
By a nation without understanding will I anger you.”
20 And Isaiah is very bold and says,
“I was found by those who did not seek Me,
I became manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”
21 But as for Israel He says, “All the day long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”"

I am one of those numbered among 'those that are not a nation' the 'nation without understanding that will anger you', I am one of those 'who did not seek Him' and He manifested Himself to me even though I did not ask for Him.
I have only spoken scripture and you have spoken your own worldly philosophy!

Col. 2: 8-15

"8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.

Phil. 3: 2, 3

2 Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. 3 For we are the real circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh

I am of the true circumcision not done with hands, I am one who is saved under the promise given to Abraham that is spoken of in Romans 9: 8. I am one saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone, He who is the fulfillment of the law and the promise!

I feel sorry for you David, you are asked some questions and you turn tail and run, how sad for you. You have opportunity here to defend yourself but all that you can do is become defensive and speak rhetoric. You said

'You like so many have decided You are in need of nothing.'

Wow, how do you get that, all that I have done is challenge your assertions and you are so shaken that you can not even defend what you say, you do not even answer the questions that I posed about Christ, perhaps you cannot because, although you know of Him, you do not know Him.
I suppose that belittling someone is a effective method in getting the attention off of your assertions but it truly exposes your true heart David. I would pray that you would come to a true knowledge of the one and only Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, He who has been given all authority and in Him and by Him all things exist.

James Hunt said...

Steve,

It seemed to me that Pastor Warren was addressing the Father in Jesus' name - and, specifically did so by using the name for Jesus in the heart language of 4 major people groups: Hebrew, Spanish, English, and, yes, Arabic.

I thought it was quite a bold move to make sure that not only would he pray in Jesus'name but would emphasize that particular point by using 4 different languages' name for Jesus.

Have you ever gone to the Middle East, Steve? Have you ever sat with a Muslim and had a spiritual conversation resulting in an open door for the gospel of Isa (Jesus)? Using Isa isn't a disrespect of our beloved Lord and Savior anymore than using the terms of Hebrew, Spanish, or English.

You may have some room for criticism of our brother's prayer...but I think your point on this is weak.

gigantor1231 said...

Mr. Hunt

If the heart language of other nationalities, tribal people, communities etc... does not tell the Gospel as it is, if it does not convey what the Word of God says then it is just heresy in different languages! Mr. Warren's words are no exception to the rule. He is a man of God who is supposed to proclaim the word of God no matter the consequence, he is suppose to cut it straight no matter the offense! I have followed him for three years, read his works listened to his sermons and speeches and I have read his book P.D.L.. The one conclusion that I have come to, this prayer is no exception, Rick Warren is a pragmatist, he speaks to please the masses and he does not speak to please Jesus Christ the one and only living God!
You may not like what Steve has said about 'America's Pastor' but you have no clue as to how he has arrived at his conclusions either! Perhaps you should extend to him the same courtesy that you are asking him to extend to Rick.
Let me ask you a question. Have you studied Steve's other posts with respect to Rick? Perhaps before you come to a conclusion on Steve you should spend the time to find out about what he has written, what he has said. He has not come to his conclusions with out much consideration and study, nor have I.

gigantor1231 said...

David

'He rejected the claim that He was God.'

OK, go ahead and defend what you have said.

By the way, rules for this blog are in the left hand column, look there for further explanation!

Rule#
3. No anonymous posting allowed. You must fill out and complete the Blogger bio form on all essential categories completely (i.e. email, blogs, city, state, vocation, etc.). In regards to name: first name only is acceptable-last name can be included at your own discretion. AND, you may only post under one name at a time--no multiple "nicks." Please enable blogger to allow your profile to be shown.

Darrin said...

"You have made Jesus a golden calf, which He never claimed or desired to be." 'Psalm', I'm sorry, this is just getting odd. Are you accusing him of idolizing CHRIST?
And what happens to David's posts - is only Gman fast enough to catch them before they're deleted?
Also, there are some strong accusations going on when we're stating a fellow blogger doesn't know the Lord. Please be careful.

Coram Deo said...

ISA is the name of the demonically inspired Muslim anti-christ, it isn't just an "Arabic name for Jesus".

Warren invoked the name of a demon during a prayer to the One True and Living God, the Infinite Creator and Judge of the universe.

God help him and all those who he's leading to perdition by affirming to over a billion lost Muslims that their "ISA" is the same Jesus whom true Christians worship as God.

Of course this should come as little surprise since Warren was among the so-called evangelicals who begged forgiveness of Islam a couple of years ago. The man's syncretism clearly knows no boundaries.

Maybe now I can understand why George W. Bush was constantly emphasizing that Christians, Jews and Muslims all worship the same deity; he must have been listening to Rick Warren!

In Christ,
CD

SJ Camp said...

Psalm - David
Deleting your comments here is very telling. Error can never stand to be scrutinized, but truth will always welcome testing.

You are welcome here to post whatever you wish to; but you must stand up, make your case, no drive-bys, and do it from a biblical worldview. If you are incapable of doing so - I understand that. But to simply delete your comments thinking that has absolved you of your previous accusations is fool-hearty.

Until you are prepared and ready to engage on this issue like a man and be counted for whatever views you are espousing then all future comments by you will be deleted as well.

Grace and peace,
Steve

James Hunt said...

Dear Brothers,

I have no beef with Steve or others. I simply have a different take on the part of the prayer where Pastor Warren invokes the name of Jesus in 4 major groups of people.

As most, I'm sure, here on this blog know we are not communicating in Hebrew and Greek or Aramaic on this blog. We are communicating in a secondary language - our heart language - English. We translate the Greek into our English Jesus. In Arabic they translate the name into Isa.

Look, when I was speaking Mandarin to witness to lost souls in Taiwan I used their word that translates Jesus - Yesu. When in Peru I speak of "ha-sus" (sp.). When I have witnessed to Muslims - through a translator - in the Middle East I have used their word that translates Jesus - Isa.

I can assure you that when I preached of Jesus and His gospel I spoke very clearly of THE only Begotten of the Father full of Grace and Truth - the Beloved of God. They very much knew of whom I spoke and the gospel went forth.

I'm no fan of Pastor Warren...but I do think, again, on this point, Steve's argument was weak.

With brotherly love and respect for you all.

James

Neil said...

Warren prays a prayer begining with "Our Father" and ending with "in Jesus' name" - and still gets beat-up.

The prayer was fine.

And trying to make something nefarious of "Isa" is a petty as it is misguided and wrong.

It's obvious that the goal is to manufacture things to complain about, not the pursuit of any truth or doctrinal putity

Neil said...

Just for the record, no one is denying that Arab Muslims use the term Isa to describe a false Jesus… and that this is based on the errors of the Qur’an.

What I am saying is that “Isa” is not limited to just that “version” of Jesus any more than the error filled New World Translation or Book of Mormon force us to abandon “Jesus” in favor of another language.

Neil said...

James,

Good points... what some, in their haste to bash Warren, have failed to realize is his intent.

gigantor1231 said...

Neil

Where is the bashing of Warren? There are elements of the prayer that we point out that are consistent with his false teaching, his syncretistic methods. You are right in saying that there is nothing wrong with his prayer, as long as you do it with the understanding that nothing he said was directed to God, it was all directed to man! So, what is the reason for prayer again?

James

I fully understand the need of contextualization, we do it all the time. My point is that when we contextualize we do it in such a way as to convey the message as well as the intent of the message! For instance when we communicate to a Muslim and they do not want to hear that Jesus is Lord, that He is God, there response to the message is irrelevant. We are called to speak the TRUTH in love. We are not called to compromise in order to win a soul, as a matter of fact we are simply called to sow and water, it is God who brings the increase. Pragmatism has become to apparent in this area and it needs to be addressed, that is what Steve has addressed here with his critique of Warren's prayer, Warren is a pure pragmatist in his methods and we are calling him out!

SJ Camp said...

Neil
The prayer was fine.

I haven't heard such astute theological, doctrinal, and biblical analysis as that on any subject since reading... The Message.

Sorry my brother. You have to do better than that to be taken seriously here. No drive-bys here. Be specific. Opening with "Our Father and closing in Jesus' name" doesn't qualify. Any Mormon, JW, Cultist, Sabellianist, Romanist, etc. could have said those words. Means little - especially when you consider what Pastor Warren included in between.

Neil, this blog is all about doctrinal purity, cutting straight His Word, and heralding the one true gospel of sola fide. Let's see what you really have to offer if you are up to the challenge.

Grace and peace,
Steve

Wesley said...

I have to agree with the guys that find the use of the word Isa to describe Jesus as blasphemous. If Warren was seeking to identify with Muslims by the use of this word then he would have to be using it in the sense that the Muslims understand it. Since they affirm each day that Allah has no son thus denying any possible sonship of Isa to their God they are also denying the deity of Isa. With these facts in mind no Muslim that heard Warren use Isa thought of Jesus God the Son and the Savior of all who repent and believe the Gospel. Warren invoked a Jesus, if you will, with this use of Isa that is not the Jesus of the Bible and if I remember correctly that makes him guilty of either blasphemy or idolatry according to the Scriptures.

SJ Camp said...

Wesley
BINGO!

Warren tried to appeal to nonbelievers in his politically correct nomenclature rather than honoring the One-Triune God of the Bible.

Thank you for your helpful comment.
Steve

SJ Camp said...

James Hunt
I thought it was quite a bold move to make sure that not only would he pray in Jesus'name but would emphasize that particular point by using 4 different languages' name for Jesus.

It wasn't different languages he was emphasizing; but different belief systems within those languages. (Muslim, Roman Catholic, Jewish, and Christian). If it were for language sake alone, why not include Russians, the Chinese, Japanese, the French, the Germans, etc.?

I have been to the middle east. My older brother Norm spent 25 years in Lebannon and Jordan ministering to Muslims as well.

Again, I think Wesley's point is well taken here. Warren appealed to the Muslims through using 'Isa - but the Muslims understanding of who Jesus is - IS heretical. So him using that name as a bridge didn't reveal to them the real Jesus of the Bible; but only identified with their false view of Christ.

To me that is an issue warranted to confront.

Help me out here if you really think I missed the meaning of what Warren was really trying to do.

Thank you for your comment.
Steve

Joel said...

ISA is the name of the demonically inspired Muslim anti-christ, it isn't just an "Arabic name for Jesus".

Yes, it is. That's what Arab Christians were calling Jesus long before Mohammed was born. And they still call Him that today. That Muslims misuse the name to tell His story falsely doesn't make it less His.

I could find issues with Warren's prayer, too, but given the position he was in, I'm not sure how much better I could have done. Given that the other religions all had their own representatives there (Muslims, Jews, homosexual Anglicans), he could have been a bit more specific.

SJ Camp said...

Joel
given the position he was in, I'm not sure how much better I could have done. Given that the other religions all had their own representatives there (Muslims, Jews, homosexual Anglicans), he could have been a bit more specific.

How about a LOT MORE specific! The world never waters down their beliefs or personal ideologies. But for some reason, Christians (famous ones especially) feel the ever present need to blend in rather be distinctive about the gospel and the person and work of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I believe that Pastor Warren was a coward biblically. Culturally, he was right on target; don't say too much as to offend and jeopardize return visits at President Obama's request; AND at the same time say enough so that the evangelical community won't think he compromised the message.

Well, we all know which option he chose... number one.

Men of conviction; we need men of conviction. Who fear the Lord more than they love the approval and applause of men. The Purpose Driven Life... No thank you. How about The Worship-Centered Life; or The Gospel-Centered Life; or The Word-Centered Life; or The Jesus-Centered Life; or even The Spirit-Centered Life. The Cross-Centered Life is also quite good.

But unfortunately, Pastor Warren has made it The Pragmatic-Centered Life.

Thanks again for your excellent comment.
Campi

Coram Deo said...

Joel said: Yes, it is. That's what Arab Christians were calling Jesus long before Mohammed was born. And they still call Him that today. That Muslims misuse the name to tell His story falsely doesn't make it less His.

Joel,

You're simply wrong.

"ISA" is an abomination of Islam, the name of the Muslim anti-christ, inspired by Satan.

I do pray that you're not intentionally attempting to spread error here, but careless error is error nonetheless.

Please take the time to become informed by reading the snippet pasted below, and then if you are so inclined feel free to read the entire article which I have linked for the edification of the interested COT readership.

In Christ,
CD

The following excpert was taken from the article Is 'Isa the true name of Jesus? by Jochen Katz of Answering Islam.

The traditional Arabic name for Jesus is Yasu'. Until very recent times, all Arab Christians used no other name for Jesus. And even today, that is the name used by more than 99% of all Arab Christians. Just walk into any Arab Christian church, turn on Arabic Christian broadcasting, read Arabic Christian literature written for Christians. You will only find Yasu', never Esa. Only very recently (perhaps some 25 years ago) some Christians started to use the name Esa in Arabic publications written specifically for Muslims in the hope that they may more easily accept their message if they see the quranic name for Jesus instead of the traditional Christian one.[1] Nevertheless, among themselves, Arab Christians do not use Esa. Abualrub's statement suggests that Arab Christians commonly use Esa, and that is simply wrong.

SJ Camp said...

CD
Tremendous comment. Thank you for your careful and thorough research.

Grace and peace,
Steve

SJ Camp said...

David (Psalm)
I have deleted your comments here for a couple of key reasons: 1. You continue to ignore the rules of this blog and post without your blogger profile being filled with real information as to who you are. 2. What you are posting here is not even remotely on message with the theme of this thread. And 3. You are not only making wide-eyed accusations against myself here, but against others as well.

Until you can comply with the rules of this blog I must ask you not to comment again. When you want to honor the blog rules then you will be permited to post again.

Grace and peace,
Steve

Deb_B said...

Psalm: "The scriptures are laced from beginning to end with ONE subject and only ONE."

My goodness! You have missed it royally, most regrettably, by emphatically stating that the ONLY "subject" Scripture is "laced with" is LOVE. You are, dear soul, off in egregious, serious error in this regard.

The Scriptures are indeed "laced from beginning to end with ONE subject and only ONE." ... from the book of Genesis through the last chapter of Revelation that "ONE" is JESUS CHRIST, God the Son.

Moreover, as a plenary inspired John tells us, We love because he first loved us. and If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; (1 Jn 4:19-20)

In your many posts in this thread, you've tossed around the word "hate" plenty. You are confused in this regard mightily ... for it is none of Divinely imparted love to leave a pastor and teacher go on unchallenged with his very public compromise of the Gospel truth coupled with appeasement of the worldly masses. That is not Divine love. It's a popularity contest with the world insomuch as Pastor Rick Warren is concerned.

God is love, but perhaps you ought to focus a bit more on the ONLY aspect of his character which He takes care in Scripture to emphasize THRICE, namely, that God is a HOLY, HOLY, HOLY God. He neither endorses nor advocates worldly appeasement and compromise, most especially not in some misguided perception of Divine love, quite the contrary!

It simply is not Divine love to remain silent when a pastor and teacher uses his platform before literally countless millions worldwide as merely a vehicle of appeasement and compromise for personal acceptance as "America's Pastor"!

What you are outlining here is a terribly misguided, un-Biblical brand of "love". "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death." (Proverbs 14:12, 16:25)

As I noted at the outset, if you think "love" is THE central focus of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation, you are already off into grave error. The entirety of Scripture points to Jesus Christ, in type and shadow in the Old Testament and fulfilled with God, the Son, incarnate - Christ and Him crucified and bodily resurrected - in the New Testament.

Deb_B said...

Whoops!, Campi, I responded to Psalm's now deleted post and uploaded my virtually verbose comments before I read your latest post.

SJ Camp said...

Deb B
Excellent!

Though Psalm's comment was deleted your comment is spot on and very helpful to this discussion. If Psalm is teachable I believe that your words can help him move from a myopic position he has voiced here to one that is more biblical and thus more discerning.

Sola Scriptura,
Steve

Wesley said...

Camp said ...
"I believe that Pastor Warren was a coward biblically. Culturally, he was right on target; don't say too much as to offend and jeopardize return visits at President Obama's request; AND at the same time say enough so that the evangelical community won't think he compromised the message.

Well, we all know which option he chose... number one.

Men of conviction; we need men of conviction. Who fear the Lord more than they love the approval and applause of men."


These were indeed great words in response to Joel's post. Joel implied that Warren did well considering the position that he was in. I think he did terribly. He had an opportunity to boldly and clearly present the Gospel of Jesus Christ and he failed miserably. As Voddie Baucham said so well, "He was not to be a political pundit but a herald of the Gospel." We do indeed need men of conviction that will remember that as Christians we only find ourselves in one position and that is a position in which we are to glorify God. It may be costly but it is the least we can do considering the fact that Jesus purchased our salvation with His life.

John Brown said...

I have heard the Dean of Liberty Baptist Seminary, Dr. Ergan Caner, himself a former Muslim, say "Isa" many times when referencing Jesus in his "mother tongue" as it were. I know he is not a Calvinist but I think I shall trust his knowledge of his own language and the relationship of Christianity to Islam more than those who are weighing in here......in yet another attempt to criticize Rick Warren.

Sadly shaking my head as I sign off...

SJ Camp said...

John
The point of this post is not to criticize Pastor Rick Warren or even needlessly look for a reason to. On the contrary. It is to be a Berean, as many are here with me - and as you have been critical of my post - so that we may apply the standard of God's Word to all that we embrace and are exposed to.

This prayer was not an "on the spot" happening. It was well thought out; with many weeks to prepare; it was written; and Warren chose his words carefully. In response to that, we may also examine what he said biblically and then post those findings in the same public arena (though on a much more limited scope) that he said them.

No one is making personal accusations against him. I don't allow that here. But they are issues surrounding doctrine and biblical truth.

So may I ask you: you accepted everything that Rick said in his prayer as being biblical and true? Though Dr. Caner has done some very fine work in apologetics, he has made some very obvious theological blunders on some of the essentials of the faith concerning soteriology.

The issue is not what Caner brings to the meaning of 'Isa; but what the Muslims consider 'Isa to mean within the doctrines of their faith. And what THEY understand that term to mean is blasphemous to Christ and His church.

BTW, I was one of the few reformed conservatives that defended Warren on how he conducted his Presidential Forum when he hosted Obama and McCain last fall at Saddleback. I thought he was absolutely brilliant in how he asked the questions and led the discussion.

But this prayer was not. It was political; ecumenical; and a-theological. Disappointing that a pastor had not God and His gospel in view, but the dignitaries surrounding him. He was, in effect, praying to them.

I would be interested to hear further your thoughts on this issue.

For Christ and His glory!
Steve

Joel said...

I stand corrected on the Arabic Christian name for Jesus. I had no idea.

However, I do believe that Warren intended to reference the Jesus of the Bible in a way that Muslims would understand. He did refer to Jesus as the One Who had changed his life, and no Muslim would have said that. It could be that he didn't know any better about the Arabic names.

There seems to be a theme among Protestants, and particularly Calvinists, that the only way to speak the Gospel is baldly and aggressively, and that anything less is watering it down. Warren was in an unenviable position, because he was praying to the real God, on behalf of people who might or might not believe in Him or who might have false beliefs about Him. Had Warren gone in with a pugilist's attitude, all he would have done is sow more hostility against the Gospel.

In any case, he wasn't there to preach. He was there to pray for our country and for God's (the Christian God's) guidance on its president. Maybe he did badly, but I'd like to believe charitably of a brother as far as I can. I know I wold have done worse.

John Brown said...

Steve, I am not a theologian nor do I play one on TV. Nor am I a Muslim. However, I do trust the dean of the seminary at my alma mater to respectfully, understand the context of this issue more than you based on his background as a Muslim and his current standing as a dean of a conservative Evangelical seminary. Your issue with Caner's soteriology is his denial of Calvinistic doctrine. I lean towards your opinion in this but I am able to graciously agree that there is difference of understanding and agreement on this issue and I do not see it as a matter of heresy. That being said......THAT is not the issue being discussed.

I think what Caner brings to the table on the meaning of "Isa" as a believing former Muslim is of great relevance. Many here without such perspective are quick to condemn Warren for his usage in the same manner a conservative Baptist former Muslim habitually uses the same term.

Was the term used inclusively? Let Warren speak for himself. Was he somehow saying that he was praying to the same God that the Muslims pray to? Do YOU REALLY believe that? Does anyone REALLY believe that? Any blog I have read not written by those who claim to be Christian and are pre-disposed to bash Warren reflect quite the opposite! Perhaps a case can be better made that there should not be a prayer of any kind before such an inaugural address than to criticize one for not intentionally and antagonistically offending non-believers in a pluralistic democracy. So again I will let the prayer of Warren stand on it's own and in his words and what he was praying to God in the name of Jesus Christ. None of us know Warren's heart.

You brought up another point Steve that bears discussing perhaps here but probably in another discussion. You mentioned Steve that you were "one of the few reformed conservatives that defended Warren on how he conducted his Presidential Forum when he hosted Obama and McCain last fall at Saddleback." So noted. But sadly that statement only shows the dearth of such objectivity, of which was impossible to deny, of those whom so readily criticize Warren because he doesn't do things their way. Such sites, many which regularly link to your blog and yours to them refuse to accept comments on their sites. Would you consider then, since they have become public voices like Warren, to designate a discussion to philosophies of and naming blogs as a way for Bereans to seek the truth? I think it would be an illuminating discussion for all. I do mean this in all sincerity and humility. Yes, YOU do allow for discussion, albeit moderated, and for that you are to be applauded. However, I think it is a legit issue to be raised here as you link to several of these "discernment" type blogs and as such a discussion of certain of these linked sites would seem valid.....providing of course we deal with issues like journalistic ethics, Christian-like attitudes and not personalities.

Thanks for your consideration.

Deb_B said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Deb_B said...

"Was he somehow saying that he was praying to the same God that the Muslims pray to? Do YOU REALLY believe that? Does anyone REALLY believe that?"

No, because at a certain point in his prayer, it became apparent to me he probably wasn't really addressing God at all, but, rather, delivering a very well-thought-out, carefully composed, prayer-like speech. Falling under the category "anyone", I can tell you what I do believe of his inaugural prayer.

I do believe, based on its wording, it was more of a prayer-like speech which had been carefully composed so as to ensure it wouldn't ruffle the feathers of the masses, most especially Muslims. Why include the Koranic word, let alone a word-for-word phrase which is repeated throughout the Koran?

What the intention of Pastor Rick Warren's heart was when he both composed and subsequently offered that inaugural prayer-like speech, only God can rightly ascertain. It is certainly not the intentions and motivations of his heart which are for me to determine. I, and others here have only his own words to ascertain his meaning. In several instances, he chose them very poorly. Perhaps it wasn't his intention to appease - God knows, I do not - but parts of his prayer certainly were appeasing, especially to Muslims. I can make that determination based on the words and phrases Rick Warren chose and leave the actual intent of his heart to the discernment of God, as it must always be. There is a difference.

"There are three kinds of men. First, those who have no intention. Second, those who have a double intention. Third, those whose intention is pure and simple." [F. B. Meyer, The Directory of the Devout Life, Meditations on the Sermon on the Mount.]

For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. [1 Corinthians 2:2-5]

Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. [Philippians 3:8-11]

John Brown said...

>>...a certain point in his prayer, it became apparent to me he probably wasn't really addressing God at all, but, rather, delivering a very well-thought-out, carefully composed, prayer-like speech<<<

Well, apparently you are making quite a bit of conjecture would you not agree?



>>.... Why include the Koranic word, let alone a word-for-word phrase which is repeated throughout the Koran?<<<

Please refer to example of former Muslim believer Ergan Caner's frequent use of the same. Would you question it the same way? Why or why not? And how is such usage deny any correct fealty to the sacred Christian scripture?

>>>>>What the intention of Pastor Rick Warren's heart was when he both composed and subsequently offered that inaugural prayer-like speech, only God can rightly ascertain. It is certainly not the intentions and motivations of his heart which are for me to determine. I, and others here have only his own words to ascertain his meaning. In several instances, he chose them very poorly. Perhaps it wasn't his intention to appease - God knows, I do not - but parts of his prayer certainly were appeasing, especially to Muslims. I can make that determination based on the words and phrases Rick Warren chose and leave the actual intent of his heart to the discernment of God, as it must always be. There is a difference.<<<<<


Might I suggest that if no one here is questioning Warren's intentions than several here might want to reconsider the words they have written which seem to have been pretty sure just why Warren has said such and such. To suggest there is not an overall prevailing "anti-Warren" attitude here is disingenuous at best.

Lastly, I often scratch my head at the posting of such wonderful verses Deb that show such humility in Christ but seem to show such little humility towards others. I hope I am misreading you.

Deb_B said...

"I hope I am misreading you."

Likewise, John, as I have perused your posts here, including your response to mine.

I shall have to temporarily depart our discussion here until I am free to return to it later on this evening.

Rick Frueh said...

I believe parsing the words is useless and elevates the prayer higher than the obvious intention. Most public prayers, especially ones pre-scripted, are meant for public consumption. Warren accomplished what he was asked to do, and his use of the Muslim term was a sincere effort to reach out to Muslims not a suggestion that all gods are the same.

John B. - I used to believe all blogs should have comments allowed, but some of the blogs about which I am sure you refer would only turn into a viscious scrum and prove profoundly unproductive.

Opimions are like blogs, everybody has one. :lol:

SJ Camp said...

John Brown
In any case, he wasn't there to preach.

I agree.

But consider how Paul prayed for the church at Colosse when saying "9 And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God. 11 May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. 13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." (Col. 1:9-14).

Not a bad model for bringing into an Inauguration...

"He was there to pray for our country and for God's (the Christian God's) guidance on its president.

Correct. So why not then do that. And do it unashamedly according to Scripture without being ecumenical. Again, when they become the audience in his prayer and not the Lord, then he is in fact, praying to them and not on behalf of them.

Here is THE question: was God glorified in Pastor Warren's prayer? I think we all know the answer...

Thanks for engaging in this discussion John though we may see things differently. I am glad you are still here commenting.

Steve

gigantor1231 said...

John Brown

Do you understand that God is a jealous God and He shares His throne with no one, that includes the ecumenical? He is one God and to Him alone belongs all praise, worship, glory and honor.
So, why do you insist that Warren's obvious ecumenical, syncretistic prayer is something that emulates what God wants to hear? Warren only recognizes Jesus Christ in token and does not afford Him the lofty position that He commands, Creator, Master, Lord, King of all Kings and there is no other, other than Him.
Why do you insist on standing in agreement with a man that praises President Obama's choice of a pervert, Gene Robinson? Per Warren;

"[Obama] has again demonstrated his genuine commitment to bringing all Americans of goodwill together in search of common ground. I applaud his desire to be the president of every citizen."

A homosexual chosen as a symbol of common, ground, a man who hates Christ, common ground with those who hate Christ. Do you agree with this J.B.?
What a slap in the face to the one and only living God! This is proof positive of what Warren is all about and it is definitely not bringing glory to the one and only God through Jesus Christ! Warren's prayer was directed to the same ones that this comment was directed to, it was directed to those with itching ears.

John Brown said...

SJ:

Here is THE question: was God glorified in Pastor Warren's prayer? I think we all know the answer...

LOL. We may think we all know the answer but somehow I think our answers may not be all the same.

Rather than I rehash what we won't agree on may we part disagreeing agreeably as you have.

PS. Think about that blog on "bloggers without commenting accountability" angle. Could prove quite interesting.

John Brown said...

Gigantor,

Please show one word of Warren's prayer that is not Biblical. ONE word. That kind of ends the discussion for me.

To the next subject, I believe you confuse a pluralistic democracy with an apparent desire for a theistic kingdom. Two very different issues.

I despise the theology and homosexual lifestyle of "Bishop" Robinson. But at the same time, there is no official religion in this country be it liberal or conservative.

At the same time, homosexuality is a legal option in the US whether we like it or not and they are legal citizens. Now I believe the Bible clearly states that homosexuality is reprobate. But I also have worked with some gay individuals (airline industry don't you know) who are just as patriotic towards their country as you would claim to be.

The issue is that Obama IS President of all citizens of the US. We do not have to agree with the legal lifestyle of those he chooses to recognize but they are citizens nonetheless and I don't have a problem on that level as I think Warren was articulating. Of course Warren wasn't legitimizing the gay lifestyle. His opposition to such was why so many howled to start with.

Again, a case can be better made that a prayer should not be offered at a public event as an inauguration than can be made for a single word of Warren's prayer being Biblically incorrect or confusing the God of Muslim with the true God of Christianity.

And I'm sure it is safe to say that you do not know his heart or intent no matter the volume or repetition of saying so.

gigantor1231 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
gigantor1231 said...

J.B.

One word! M.L.K. and a great cloud of witnesses dancing because of a change of color in a president. Give me a break J.B.. How telling and ignorant, as if anyone would think such a trivial thing would matter in the presence of the living God, could you take your eyes off of his glory J.B.. If you even think you could then you have no clue!

By the way J.B., I do not know if you recognize this or not, probably not, this country is in the throws of judgment, read Romans 1. Patriotism and national unity should not be on the lips of Warren because it is the last thing we need. This nation needs to nationally repent as a people and until this happens the down hill slide will continue. I suppose in the grand scheme of things the eternal condition of the souls of men is not a issue to you either, but patriotic homosexuals is something that is legitimate to you. Well, yep they are legal and that is why we need to be unified with them right J.B.. Don't want to call them to repentance though, it might offend and we can't have that, it may upset the peace plan. Your words and arguments may hold up in this world J.B., but they sure have nothing to do with the Word of God. Don't worry though, what you preach coincides with what many proclaim!

John Brown said...

Gigantor:

One word! M.L.K. and a great cloud of witnesses dancing because of a change of color in a president. Give me a break J.B.. How telling and ignorant, as if anyone would think such a trivial thing would matter in the presence of the living God.....



I will give you that....to a degree. Only because MLK may not be in heaven....but again he might be.

I do not like Obama's politics but completely set apart from the political I am happy that we have seen a day that a man of color has been elected at a time when those who have been relegated to the back of the bus are yet alive to see it. There is a bit of healing in that for many from years of injustice in this country. That is a good thing and all good things are to be celebrated. In heaven? Might be stretching it a bit.

Is it worse than a prideful and haughty spirit? Is it worse than a condescending attitude towards a brother? Perhaps you might re-read your posts on this thread prayerfully.

Lastly, is it worse than calling another brother a "false teacher" even if you greatly disagree with him on many things? A brother, IMO, who just wrote and sent the following message to hundreds of thousands of people:


We Know God’s Truth: Jesus Christ
by Rick Warren

Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.” John 14:6 (NLT)

*** *** *** ***

The Bible says that Jesus was full of grace and truth. Truth is not a principle. Truth is a person; truth is Jesus Christ.

One of the clearest and best-known statements by Jesus is: “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me” (John 14:6 NLT).

Notice Jesus says, “I am the truth ….” He doesn’t say truth is a religion, or a ritual, or a set of rules and regulations. He says “I.” Truth is a person.

This is what separates Jesus Christ from every other leader of every other faith. Other leaders have said, “I’m looking for the truth” or “I’m teaching the truth” or “I point to the truth” or “I’m a prophet of truth.” Jesus comes and says, “I am the truth.”

A lot of people say, “I think Jesus was just a great teacher.” But he couldn’t be just that: No great teacher would claim to be God if he wasn’t. Either Jesus is conning 2.3 billion people who believe a lie, or he was nuts, or Jesus is who he said he was.

Everybody’s betting their life on something. I’m betting my life that Jesus is who he said he was.

“Jesus told him, ‘I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is. From now on, you do know him and have seen him!’” (John 14:6-7 NLT).

What do you do with the truth once you’ve discovered it? Four things:

1. Believe the truth!

2. Do the truth. Truth is not just an intellectual exercise; it’s something you obey.

3. Stand for the truth. The Bible tells us our responsibility is to never oppose the truth but to stand for it at all times.

4. Spread the truth. The Bible says, “Let everything you do reflect your love of the truth and the fact that you were in dead earnest about it” (Titus 2:7 LB).


Now you might not agree with how he does this but I have been around the man personally for 25 years and that he does hold to these beliefs and IMO lives them out. To call someone a "false teacher" is a pretty big charge to cast about with some pretty weighty responsibility if you are wrong. Might I again offer that you might want to consider any beams you might have in your eye.

Blessings.

John Brown said...

PS Gigantor.....


I forgot to mention in my last post that you still seemingly fail to come to grip with is that we do not live in a theocracy. Warren was there to pray for a blessing on this President. He did so including asking asking for integrity. He wasn't there to rain down fire on other citizens that do not hold his theological viewpoint. If you state that there should have been no prayer whatsoever at the event then you have a more intellectually sound argument.

Lastly the Bible says we are to pray for those whom curse God. I don't think that means to embarrass them publically or ask for judgement on them. God already says "Judgement is Mine, I shall repay". It appears some are worried God won't follow through if we are nice to someone who is an unrepentant sinner.

gigantor1231 said...

J.B.

One word! M.L.K. and a great cloud of witnesses dancing because of a change of color in a president. Give me a break J.B.. How telling and ignorant, as if anyone would think such a trivial thing would matter in the presence of the living God.....


"I will give you that....to a degree. Only because MLK may not be in heaven....but again he might be."

This is not the point J.B., if M.L.K. is in heaven he is now known as he is fully known and he now realizes what that means! What is occurring here on earth is drivel in comparison and no one there is going to be dancing to anything other than saved souls giving glory to the one and only living God in Jesus Christ.

'Is it worse than a prideful and haughty spirit? Is it worse than a condescending attitude towards a brother? Perhaps you might re-read your posts on this thread prayerfully.'

Look, if you think I am being haughty and proud then I am sorry you feel that way. I am simply angry at your willingness to compromise at the expense of the Gospel. I am indignant at Warren for being duplicitous in his teachings, methods etc.... Rick has his agenda that is apart from the word of God i.e. peace plan etc... he never mentions the need for the Gospel, that is unless it is convenient for him and un offending to those he is speaking to. Yes, I understand that we should pray for worldly leaders, the unsaved etc... but our prayer should be honest and according to God's word and desire, not our agenda. Our response to their question and inquiries should be forthright and scriptural as well! A good example of usual Warren compromise and false teaching is his recent response to Allen Colmes when he was asked what the consequence of not following Christ would be. Warren's answer was that it was not his place to say. If this is not a outright lie and false teaching from his mouth then I do not know what is. Warren is called as a minister of God's Word to be honest and ready to give a answer for the hope that is within him. In that hope is the deliverance from eternal separation from God, because he was drawn by the Father to follow Jesus Christ, without which he would have been lost in eternity forever, hell J.B. people go to hell if they do not follow Jesus! Do you agree with J.B.? When asked directly about this J.B. shouldn't you answer honestly and according to God's Word? Rick knows this, but for the sake of pragmatism he forsook his call and chose the wide road. This epitomizes his false teaching and I have heard it from his lips in multiple venues, interviews articles and every other event, seminar, teaching series that he has been involved in. He has even been asked with respect to his magnum opus P.D.L.; What if someone does not want to hear about Jesus? Rick's response 'then don't read that part.' What pragmatic and demonically inspired hog wash. Not to mention the syncretistic nature of P.D.L. itself, filled with man made philosophy and Warren's trademark scripture ripping method of eisegesis, he must have spent a lot of time hopping from one translation to another to find translations, paraphrases, dynamic renderings, or what ever else he desired, to make scriptures fit to what he wanted to say, not what they actually taught mind you but what he wanted to say and convey in his message!
Lest we forget, Rick openly accepts the title of America's pastor, as well as he has his 'Purpose Driven Nation' Rwanda! J.B., examples are rife of Rick's false teaching, disrespect for authority other than his own etc.... You want Rick, you can have him. Obviously I can not see Rick's heart but the fruit he bares is certainly apparent and what he bares does not lean toward Christ or His Word, it goes to his agenda, his P.E.A.C.E. plan and what ever other plan you want. You may not like it J.B. but Rick is way off the board in error! If you have known him for 25 years and can not see this perhaps you are to close. Move to the Word of God and ask God to open your eyes because you are about to fall into a pit.

John Brown said...

Gigantor, is it your place to be "angry"? Is not God in charge? What will your "anger" accomplish one bit? Most who post here are Calvinist. Are you? Is not God sovereign? It seems like some of these are the worst critics which causes me to scratch my head. I'm not a fatalist but either we believe God is sovereign or not and no one will thwart His plans or if so He is not sovereign. I don't see any room for anger there. "Earnestly contend", fine. Contentious? Not so much.

Again, you make many attacks based on motives. You cannot know Warren's motives. You make a reference to Alan Colmes without a quote, fine. I don't recall it that way so maybe you could share it. I could likewise share a quote (if I want to go look it up)from another Hannity and Colmes show where Warren clearly stated that according to the Bible, which he believes, that Jews who don't believe in Jesus Christ will go to hell. You know, when your every words are magnified and put under a microscope would we expect that you were perfect in every nuance and answer. I remember an interview around Christmas on H&C when Warren was trying to answer a serious question and Hannity was cutting up and having fun and good naturedly interrupted Warren every time he tried to speak.

My background is very conservative Baptist and Reformed Presbyterian with k-12 Christian day school and college in both. I think I have some experience at seeing error in doctrine. No, of course I am not infallible. But I do recognize the fruits of the Spirit, love, joy, peace, etc.

As for "America's pastor". Who cares? A lot of people will label you for good or bad. And it will likely change. Is he supposed to reject the platform he is given. My guess is here is where you will say he is to pronounce judgement on others. (wink) There was John The Baptist and his style in the Bible and there was Dr. Luke. God doesn't make us all with the same style. The message can never change. I don't believe it has with Warren. I dare say my "closeness" to the situation (and in some cases pretty close) may put me at a bit of an advantage to better see and understand the passion and desires of the man, at least as one can tell in a relaxed moment.

I won't even try to answer all of your points you have tried to throw against the wall but just a couple quick ones;

(1) You know the old "Wet Paint" deal. We all want to see if it is really wet. If someone is going to pick up a book and read it they are more than likely going to read all of it, including the "religious stuff" if they agree with the rest.

(2) You can judge the PEACE plan or whatever all you want. Fine. But there is nothing wrong with it if you realize it is limited for what it is. Without God it is only the social gospel. Warren has already discussed this:

Best-selling author, social activist and megachurch pastor Rick Warren described the social gospel supported by many of the mainline churches as “Marxism in Christian clothing.”

“[W]e don’t need to care about redemption, the cross, repentance. All we need to do is redeem the social structures of society and if we make those social structures better the world will become a better place,” explained Warren as he described the beliefs behind those who support the “social gospel,” in his interview with Beliefnet.com, which was posted Monday.

“Really in many ways it was just Marxism in Christian clothing,” he criticized. “[I]t was in vogue at that time that if we redeem society then man will automatically get better. It didn’t deal with the heart.”

Warren, recognized as one of the most socially active Christians in the world, did not hold back his criticism of those who call themselves Christians but seek to make the world a better place by focusing on the body – issues of poverty, disease, social justice and racial justice – and not the soul.

But he also disagreed with their counterpart – Christians who disregard the body altogether while caring only for the soul and personal morality.

“Who’s right? Well in my opinion they’re both right,” Warren concluded. “Part of my desire as a leader is to bring these two wings back together. I think we need them both.

“I think it’s very clear that Jesus cared about both the body and the soul. He cared about both personal and social issues and I think they’re both important but there’s been this split.”

gigantor1231 said...

J.B.

Look, you have made up your mind, so follow the man. You do not want to answer the questions I have posed to you, that is fine as well, I will respond in kind!
I am sure that you have been shown many examples of Rick's heretical teaching but to you it is OK, the truth does not matter as long as you are really sincere... and following some 40 day program of Rick's!

John Brown said...

Look, you have made up your mind, so follow the man. You do not want to answer the questions I have posed to you, that is fine as well, I will respond in kind!
I am sure that you have been shown many examples of Rick's heretical teaching but to you it is OK, the truth does not matter as long as you are really sincere... and following some 40 day program of Rick's!


LOL. In the totality of your long last post you asked one question of me and it appeared rhetorical at that. "Do you believe people go to hell JB?" I think it is quite evident from my posts that I do.

Gigantor, IMO it seems a bit unseemly to me for you to portray an attitude such as "follow the man" as in your last post and a multitude of others in your other posts. I have treated you with respect in our differences. I mention it because I truly wonder if God is being glorified in such a manner and if this is not a serious thing while you rail about others.

I do not believe in "following" any man. Nor do I believe in attacking a man for things that IMO he has not done. You seemed to mentioned "sincerity" derisively. While I don't think God approves of error (which you appear to claim in total and I defend primarily) I certainly think it is clear from the Bible that "God looks on the heart".

Blessings

gigantor1231 said...

J.B.

Yes, God does look on the heart, we are called to observe the fruit and test the spirit! Wisdom will prove itself in the end J.B., secrets will be revealed and the tares will be separated from the wheat. I am sure that anyone that challenges you is accused of railing J.B., but then again I guess I should not assume that because you are the only one that can judge the motives of others! Hmmmm, I guess you give respect in a back handed kind of way, don't you.

John Brown said...

Gigantor,

Please show me if I have "questioned your motives" or anyone else's for that matter and I will readily apologize. Thank you.

Blessings.

gigantor1231 said...

J.B.

'Is it worse than a prideful and haughty spirit? Is it worse than a condescending attitude towards a brother?'

Then of course there are your kind words regarding railing!

I do not care that you question my motives or what ever it is that you think that you know of me. I have confidence that the same one that saved me will see to it that I am corrected if need be.
However, you criticize me and read what you think you see between the lines, telling me I should not do the same to warren, difference being that I have heard him speak, studied his works and spoken to one of his elders on more than one occasion. I have done this for three years. You speak with me for a couple days, read handful of words in comparison and you think you know me. Perhaps you should practice what you preach J.B.!

gigantor1231 said...

J.B.

I am going to put together some things that expose what I have addressed with you in regards to Warren. Please let me know if you think that it would be a waste of your time and I will disregard. As I have said before I think you have made up your mind but I would still be interested in what you have to say.

John Brown said...

Gigantor,

There is a BIG difference in "questioning motives" and describing behavior! It seems incongruous that you will "rely on God to correct you" yet you seem to think that you must correct Warren instead of God. There seems to be a disconnect there.

I have only encouraged you to seek your heart for the disrespect that I believe you have shown. And if you will note anytime I have mentioned such a thing I have used words like "seems", "seemingly", "apparently", etc. I do not know your heart. I am only sharing my perspective of the way you come across here.

Interesting that you say that you have talked to one of "Warren's elders." Saddleback Church is not an elder led church. After being there for 21 years I don't even think they have deacons. Never heard of it. And I was also on staff.

I have seen so much misinformation on Warren and Saddleback that it may be interesting to see what you have collected in the last three years. Maybe some of it will be spot-on. Maybe much of it will be a rehash of the same old stuff I have seen before and is easily refutable based on my 21 years at the church, personal relationship, and staff job at Saddleback. I do not agree with everything Warren has done. Afterall, I do not "follow a man".

You may choose to show your expose and I encourage you to do so if you would like. I will look at it objectively, agree where I can, and disagree where I don't. Admittedly, I really don't think minds will be changed, ours at least. LOL. It might be beneficial for others.

gigantor1231 said...

J.B.

"There is a BIG difference in "questioning motives" and describing behavior!"

Not really J.B., many times behaviors express motives in and of themselves. For instance your assessment of me being 'haughty and prideful', in order to exhibit these attitudes I must have motive to express them, in other words you will not find someone who is haughty or proud on accident!
Your assessment came after only communicating with me and reading my posts here. In comparison, I have followed Rick for over three years and I have not come to the conclusions that I have without much prayer and consideration. Now, and please forgive me if I appear to be mocking you in some way, I assure you that I am not, perhaps you should reconsider your assessment of me and check yourself to see whether or not you are carrying out what you accuse me of, judgment based upon intent of the heart!
You seem to be questioning my integrity in regards to speaking to one of Warren's elders, leaders, under shepherds or what ever they are called, I actually have the e mail and he said that he is a teaching pastor, he said his name is Tom Holladay. Anyway, I am not in the habit of manufacturing stories in order to support what I am saying. So, you can take this for what it is worth!

I will leave you with a couple of examples of Rick's teaching, presentations, however you want to categorize it. As a whole, to be right up front I think that Warren preaches a different Gospel and that it is exhibited in the following to presentations. I will let you view them with no more commentary from me, that way you can assess without to much interference from me.
First is the Hannity and Colmes interview that I mentioned earlier;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3XT4CclBi0

Next is a presentation Rick made at Technology, Entertainment, Design symposium held in 2007;

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/rick_warren_on_a_life_of_purpose.html

My correspondence with the teaching pastor at Saddleback was in regards to a Fox News interview in December of 2006 originally entitled: 'Can Rick Warren Save the World' later changed to 'Can Rick Warren Change the World'. It is about Rick's trip to Rwanda to hand out P.D.L. and make Rwanda his first Purpose Driven Nation. I am sure you can look this up and/or even find it on you tube on your own. I will leave you with this for now.

John Brown said...

I will comment on the rest of the stuff later when I have time to read and watch it. (BTW....what someone else titles a story they produce is of no reflection on Warren.....)

You are the one who said "elder". As Rush says, "words mean things". I appreciate the correction and clarification. I hope the rest of the information is more correct.

As for your motives....no, I don't know what they are. I can only comment on what I perceive your actions to be. I will not pretend to know why. That is the whole point, I don't know other's hearts other than we are all sinners and some of us are saved by God's grace. God judges the heart. That is clear from Scripture.

I know Tom quite well. Would you care to share whatever correspondence he has shared? I'm quite sure it's not in significant disharmony with Warren.

Lastly, you say that you have prayed about this and I have no doubt that is true . You seem to negate that I have done the same. However, I likewise have prayed for wisdom in the same matter. Hmmmm. What to do?

gigantor1231 said...

J.B.

'(BTW....what someone else titles a story they produce is of no reflection on Warren.....)'

Actually, if what was told me by Tom, they were intimately involved with the production and so Rick was very much cast in a factual and favorable light! Sorry, can't write that one off so easy.

Here is a interesting phrase you bring up J.B.. Please define what you mean here, give me some context to what you are saying. Also, are we judged according to our works? How about our words, will we be held accountable and judged for them? So, what do you mean by this phrase? 'God judges the heart.'

As for the correspondence between Tom and I, never said it was in disharmony with Rick at all. No, Tom was justifying there acceptance of the title to the interview!

'Lastly, you say that you have prayed about this and I have no doubt that is true . You seem to negate that I have done the same.'

Not words that came from my keyboard nor did they occur to me mentally. So, where is it that I negated that you had prayed? You just draw your conclusions from scant information!

John Brown said...

Gigantor,

I'm not sure if you are intending to be obtuse or it is just the case. I clearly said "you seem to negate" that I had prayed, as if God has given you confirmation that you are "right", obviating any prayer I might have offered. When a person uses the "I have prayed about it" card in a dispute it comes off as an attempt to spiritualize your position and to basically say God has "authorized" your point of view. Did you write those words? Of course not. Was it by implication? It seems that way to me.

It is amazing to me that you ascribe FOX News choice to name a report on Warren's work in Uganda to Warren. Warren is not in the TV marketing business and I doubt FOX is willing to turn over their rather evident expertise to him. Regardless, I really don't have a problem with the second title anyways. What's the big deal?

Just a quick aside on FOX. News Corp., parent company of FOX, also owns Zondervan, the publisher of Warren's books. As such, Warren is a frequent guest on FOX programs.

The following verses speak very clearly to how God looks at the heart of men. Men can easily be fooled, even fooling themselves. Will we be judged for our acts. We are commanded to obey the laws of God. Our desire to obey is out of love....an action of the heart. We will not always be faithful of course in our obedience. Because of the justification of our sins in the blood of the cross I believe God will see us at the Judgement "just as if" we have never sinned based on our acceptance of His redemptive plan, Jesus. Christianity is not a works-based religion, it is grace-based. It all comes from the heart. Only God can know the heart. Of course we are told if we are believers we should exhibit the fruits of the Spirit.

I Samuel 16:7

But the Lord said to Samuel, “Don’t judge by his appearance or height, for I have rejected him. The Lord doesn’t see things the way you see them. People judge by outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.”

I Cor 4:4-6

4 My conscience is clear, but that doesn’t prove I’m right. It is the Lord himself who will examine me and decide.

5 So don’t make judgments about anyone ahead of time—before the Lord returns. For he will bring our darkest secrets to light and will reveal our private motives. Then God will give to each one whatever praise is due.

2 Cor.5:11

11 Because we understand our fearful responsibility to the Lord, we work hard to persuade others. God knows we are sincere, and I hope you know this, too.

Hebrews 4:11-12

12 For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God. Everything is naked and exposed before his eyes, and he is the one to whom we are accountable.

Isaiah 29:13

13 And so the Lord says,
“These people say they are mine.
They honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
And their worship of me is nothing but man-made rules learned by rote.


Matthew 5:28

But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matthew 15:8

These people honor me with their lips,but their hearts are far from me.

John Brown said...

Forgot to add....

For the Uganda special FOX did, of course Warren was involved. A close friend of mine was there the whole time. The scheduling was all done by Warren's staff. FOX wasn't the "tail wagging the dog". They accompanied Warren on his trip to Africa. FOX had pretty much "all access". That doesn't mean in any way that Warren had final say on any production values. If so, they probably wouldn't have shown the roof damage the helicopter had done to the school. LOL.

Again, Warren is prone to get more favorable coverage and quantity of coverage because of the ties between Zondervan and FOX.

gigantor1231 said...

J.B.

'I'm not sure if you are intending to be obtuse or it is just the case.'

Ya know, no, I may not be the sharpest knife on the shelf J.B., and no I was not mentioning the fact that I prayed to obviate your prayer. I was simply stating a fact and common ground.
Perhaps it is the case that I am just 'obtuse', 'I also understand that from the abundance of ones heart the mouth speaks'. Are you now putting on display the abundance yours via your quip?

I do truly understand how God looks upon the heart. You used the term so much that I wanted to make sure I understood what you were saying. I thought that perhaps you were adding some pomo. emergent twist to 'God looking on the heart!'
I also hold entirely to salvation by grace through faith. Far be it from me to lay claim to anything with regards to my salvation! While we are on the topic of salvation, no I am not a Calvinist, I choose to be non sectarian as far as it is possible, Christian is a good enough identifier for me.

Rwanda is where the special took place, Warren chose Rwanda, not Uganda, as his first Purpose Driven Nation! Unless you are talking about a new nation that the Purpose Driven Messiah is launching into? Lets make sure we have our Purpose Driven nations correct!

John Brown said...

Ya know, no, I may not be the sharpest knife on the shelf J.B., and no I was not mentioning the fact that I prayed to obviate your prayer. I was simply stating a fact and common ground.

Just so I can better understand the above...you mentioned "stating.....common ground". I had not said anything about my prayer about this until after your statement. Not sure where the "common ground" was there to be "stated".

As for Uganda/Rwanda....my bad. Warren is involved heavily in both places. It has been at least a couple of years since I saw the piece on FOX. I note you never explained what your issue is with the title of the program regardless of who named it. What IS the the big deal anyway?

As for the "Purpose Driven Messiah". Would you not agree that is a perjorative term? THAT is why so many people, myself included, claim that these types of forums often steer into "bashing" and "attacking". It becomes a personal thing. You have admitted your anger. Your posts seem to express that anger. There is nothing wrong with anger, up to the point of "sinning" according the Word. Again, I don't know your heart. I can only see what actions I see. Would it not be more righteous to be angry, but not be personal towards a brother? He clearly claims the blood of Jesus Christ as salvation and claims the fundamentals of the faith. To question such is bordering on doing the work of the Holy Spirit. That's above my pay grade for sure.

John Brown said...

Gigantor,

I promised I would get back to you on the links you posted. I had already seen them before but I watched them again.

The TED conference video - The speech was not supposed to be a gospel presentation. It was supposed to be about using your influence and your affluence. The audience was made up by movers and shakers. Regardless, Warren did share much of his faith with them. I watched it some 24 hours ago and I remember he said something along the lines of "life is about what you do with what you have". I agree but think it could have been better presented. Knowing him and his speaking style, we all have one, I think it was a spur of the moment rhetorical flourish but nonetheless certainly not a heretical or "different gospel" by any stretch of the imagination.

The H&C interview - I can't imagine what your serious issue is with this. I think the "60 day guarantee" thing was kind of lame. However, he sat next to a Jewish man and stated when asked that Jesus said HE was the only way to heaven and Warren agreed. He didn't wimp out whatsoever. All Christians accept that by faith. We can't prove it. We do see God work in our lives when we accept Him but we really can't prove there is a heaven. We accept much of our faith, well, on faith. :)

Warren stated that God didn't come just for Christians but for all people of all faiths. Jesus did die for all but will only return a second time (not clearly explained) for Christians, believers in Christ, which again was clearly mentioned following that. Some people think that if they are a "gentile" they are a Christian. By saying that God came for people who are of other faiths gives people pause to realize that they too could accept Christ. Once again, it was CLEARLY stated that Christ was the only way to heaven. And let's face it, it's not like he controlled the interview and had unlimited time. Hannity was in a fun holiday spirit for sure and in the next short segment kept cutting off Warren every time he tried to answer a question. LOL

I just really can't imagine what the big deal is. It really seems to me that you are nitpicking here. I actually have some issues that are real issues IMO. One was a single Purpose Driven event that was held in a Catholic church and open to other Catholic churches. I think that was very wrong. Warren was not a speaker and not even there but ultimately as the head of Purpose Driven he was responsible. I know the man who organized the event. A good man but wrong on this. He did not stay at Purpose Driven long after.

gigantor1231 said...

J.B.

I am sick, I will try and write a more thorough response when I feel better.

John Brown said...

Sorry to hear you aren't feeling well. Hopefully you will feel better soon and have a good day with the Body on Sunday.