Thursday, December 04, 2008

RICK WARREN ON HANNITY AND COLMES
"...I dare you to try trusting Jesus for 60 days. or your money guaranteed back."

UPDATED with VIDEO CLIP 




As much as I appreciated what Rick Warren did in his faith presidential forum several months ago, his appearance last evening on one of my favorite programs, Hannity and Colmes, was disappointing. What Pastor Warren responded with to some of host's Allan Colmes simple yet important questions was not the biblical gospel of salvation or even a reasonable defense of the gospel.


One of his responses? "Try Jesus...?" As Colmes sarcastically quipped in response: "Like the book of the month club..."

Beloved, why can't evangelical leaders just speak the truth in love and give the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ without the sidebar fodder of feeling like they have to be funny; relate; be relevant; or make Jesus likable. Try Jesus? How disrespectful to the Lord. Heaven's dread Sovereign doesn't ask to be tried out like a new kind of food or gadget; He doesn't ask to be sampled - He demands to be worshiped, followed, obeyed and submitted to as Lord!

Now some might wonder: "Campi, is this kind of stuff really important today with our economy failing, people really hurting and feeling the pinch, wars still occurring, etc.?" Yes it is - and here is why. The gospel IS the key issue above all others. Not to diminish those other things for they are real concerns, but the eternal state of another's soul is the preeminent weight of all. Even if all around fails and we face some very difficult and trying times financially in our nation, the one true hope of all can never be depreciated or bankrupted - the hope of the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen? We are privileged, beloved, to go to a lost world with the hope of salvation and the forgiveness of sins in the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

And this is our hope as believers too. We need to encourage one another with this hope daily. We need to pray for each other like never before. We need to comfort one another with the words of Christ these days and to provoke one another with love and good works. So when a well-known pastor gets on a national news talk show and doesn't really present the true gospel when asked plainly - then it should matter.

Here is part of the transcript.
I will post the actual video when it becomes available.
COLMES: All right. Let me ask you: you talk about, OK, so you think everybody needs a savior.

WARREN: I do.

COLMES: Well, what about those people who don't — you know, I happen to be Jewish. Not everybody — and Jesus, by the way, I have a lot in common with. Same religion.

WARREN: Absolutely.

COLMES: So not everybody necessarily goes that route.

WARREN: The thing is, Alan, I believe Jesus Christ came for everybody. I don't think he came for Christians. The Bible says take this good news to the whole world.

I don't care whether you're Baptist, Buddhist, Mormon, Methodist, Jewish, Muslim, or no religion at all. Jesus Christ still loves you. You still matter to God.

COLMES: True, and I think that's a wonderful message. But if you don't accept Jesus, if you're not something who goes that route religiously...

WARREN: Yes.

COLMES: ... can you find your way to heaven? Can you still be — go to the same place when it's all said and done?

WARREN: I'm not the authority on that, but I believe Jesus is. And everybody's betting their life on something. Jesus said, "I am the way." I'm betting that he's not a liar. I'm betting that he told the truth.

COLMES: What about — what does it say for all those people who do not accept Christ as their personal savior?

WARREN: I'm saying that this is the perfect time to open their life, to give it a chance. I'd say give him a 60-day trial.

(CROSSTALK)

COLMES: Like the Book of the Month Club.

WARREN: Give him a trial. See if he'll change your life. I dare you to try trusting Jesus for 60 days. Or your money guaranteed back.

COLMES: Really? You're going to give me the money back?

WARREN: Absolutely. Direct to me, Sean Hannity, FOX News Channel.

COLMES: But seriously, because I wonder. I mean, do you look differently upon those people like me who are not Christians but still don't believe...?

WARREN: I do not look differently on them. I think God...

HANNITY: He likes you more than I like you. He loves you. He tells you every time he's here.

COLMES: He's a good American.

HANNITY: Exactly.

WARREN: We're all created in the image of God. There's no doubt about that. There's not a person on earth that God doesn't love, but God wants us to learn to love him back.

And to me, God says, "I've given you this gift of grace, which means you don't earn your way to heaven. You don't work your way to heaven. You simply receive my gift."

And — and that means we need to unwrap the gift that God has given us, and your past can be forgiven. You can have a purpose for living, and you can have a home in heaven.

COLMES: Can you do all those things in other religions, too?

WARREN: I don't know how you would possibly do that. God didn't send 100 Jesuses; he didn't send 1,000. He sent one.

56 comments:

Brian @ voiceofthesheep said...

Let me ask you a serious and pointed question(s), Steve...

IF (and please note I am prefacing my question with "if") Rick Warren truly believes what the transcript records him saying on Fox, should he be considered within the bounds of biblical, orthodox Christianity?

I know he hits the 'evangelicalism' target right smack dab in the middle - which is why I am tempted more and more not to be associated with the term 'evangelical' - but if he truly believes that you can "give Jesus a try or get your money back", and that salvation is based upon you choosing to "unwrap the gift" which results in your sins being forgiven...what are we to make of this from an eternal perspective?

How long will we continue to say this guy is wrong, but not have the fortitude to call him a false teacher (I know some have)?

I know those things sound harsh, but has this man not crossed the line a long time ago?

Can we really call him an evangelical leader? Is he a proclaimer of the real gospel? Is he not, in fact, leading people AWAY from Christ and not TO Christ?

josephmcbee said...

It comes across as "easy-believism." It seems that with Warren it's not about recognizing the filth of your sins before a just and holy God, it's not about repentance, it's not about the Lordship of Christ. It's about warm and fuzzy good feelings. It's about fitting Christ into my life, my plans, my agenda and hey, if Jesus makes me happy then I'll stick with Him. If not...

It's easy to fill a church with thousands with that kind of message or to sell millions of books, but is anyone really hearing the gospel?

I think not. And that is a tragedy.

Brian @ voiceofthesheep said...

It truly is a tragedy, and I think it is time we just go ahead and say it...

Rick Warren does not represent the church of Jesus Christ. Rick Warren does not represent Christianity. Rick Warren does not represent the true faith. He is a false preacher, a false teacher, and a false believer.

If anyone wants to disagree with what I just said, yet agrees that he is putting forth a false gospel, I would sure love to see you reconcile that contradiction.

And I am not talking about any kind of need to have perfect theology before one is saved...we are talking about someone who seemingly has NO real understanding of who God is or what the gospel entails. I don't care what the man claims to know and believe in private - out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. And Rick Warren constantly speaks a false gospel.

donsands said...

"WARREN: I don't know how you would possibly do that. God didn't send 100 Jesuses; he didn't send 1,000. He sent one."

I give him that he focuses on the one Jesus. I heard him before say, Jesus said He is the Way, and so that's what I trust.

He is so incredibly weak in the Word. How can a pastor be so not into the Scriptures?

I think he said to Colmes, "I'm a pastor Allan, not a politician".

I think Rick is just the opposite. He's not a pastor, but would be a good Congressman.
I believe he's a brother in Christ, who has a weak mindset of God's Word.
He can drive me crazy.

glip said...

Nahh, I wont go so far as to say RW is a false teacher (Kenneth Copeland, now there's a false teacher). He's kind of..on the path, but just slightly off the beaten path at the same time. Watery, bland, milquetoast. Who knows maybe God used him to reach alot of people who were watching. And that's probably the only time the mainstream news media will broadcast somebody that actually talks about grace, says Jesus is the only way, etc. Not bad when you think about it, so I'm not going to tear the guy to shreds and get all condescending on him.
I do think though that you just have to let it rip, speak the truth in love no matter what, and let the chips fall where they may (Matt 10:32, 16:24-25)...though RW did sidestep it and went the watery, relatable route. It is a shame yes.

Michele Rayburn said...

Steve, you asked,

"...why can't evangelical leaders just speak the truth in love and give the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ without the sidebar fodder of feeling like they have to be funny; relate; be relevant; or make Jesus likable?"

I think, in the case of Rick Warren, it's because he is a Church Growth Movement guy, and so for him it's about numbers and it's about not alienating anyone because he wants those numbers, even if his intentions are good.

He is also a Dominionist, which also may affect his presentation of the gospel, because sometimes one of the objectives of the Dominionist is to have enough people submit to Jesus, regardless of who they think He actually is, so that the Dominionist has enough power in numbers (of "followers") to have "global rule".

If anyone thinks that these "Movements" aren't hurting anyone, think again.

I felt bad for Alan Colmes as he asked in all seriousness how to be saved, and couldn't get a straight answer.

I cringed as Rick Warren danced around the answer and minced words...so cowardly.

But I know that is how he wants to be in order to "appeal" to the masses. He doesn't *want* to appear authoritative, so he comes off as cowardly instead.

Alan, if you see this, here is the gospel:

"Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,

"by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

"For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

"and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures." (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

And Jesus said:

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

To Rick Warren I would say:

Paul the Apostle said,

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes..." (Romans 1:16)

And Paul said "the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." (1 Cor. 1:18)

And in Galatians 5:11, Paul talks about "the offense of the cross", and in Hebrews 9:22 it says that "without shedding of blood there is no remission [of sins].

"...so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation." (Hebrews 9:28)

We shouldn't be ashamed of the gospel, ashamed of the cross (it's "foolishness"), and we shouldn't be afraid of offending people with the mention of the cross, because that is where the power is...the power of God to forgive us of our sins, and the power to save us.

There is no power to save in a cross-less, bloodless "message". It will then become a different gospel with a different message.

See Rick Warren "Explains" Himself.

olan strickland said...

Brian@voiceofthesheep: How long will we continue to say this guy is wrong, but not have the fortitude to call him a false teacher (I know some have)?

Great question Brian! God's Word tells us that we are to beware of false prophets and test the spirits to see whether they are from God. Examining the Scriptures and examining the teachings of Rick Warren clearly reveals he is a false prophet. He is marked by the way of Cain, the error of Balaam, and the rebellion of Korah - all found in his writings, teachings, and interviews.

We hate it when men like him get on television and don't have the fortitude to say, "Thus says the Lord." But somehow many who would cry out against that (and rightly so) don't have the fortitude to call a false prophet a false prophet.

gigantor1231 said...

S.J.

Let's see, we have the big Rickster accepting the moniker of 'America's Pastor', he promotes his P.D.L. book which is full of felt need false doctrine, as a matter of fact he promotes above the Word of God itself (see his trip to Rwanda, does he give the word of God and preach the hope of the Gospel? No, he promotes and distributes his book and calls Rwanda 'his first purpose driven nation'.) Warren stands in agreement and locks arms with Muslim clerics and imams, as well as other false teachers, in a unified effort to solve the worlds problems, of course this means compromising the only hope to the world, the Gospel of Jesus Christ! Can Rick Warren Save/Change the World, Fox news interview 12/2006. This is just the tip of the iceberg, there is much, much more.
Now, I do not believe that Rick Warren is the Antichrist but he certainly seems to be paving the way for him. If Rick is saved he is absolutely deceived and I would even go so far as to say that he would be one who is called 'least in the kingdom of Heaven', Mt. 5: 19, because he annuls the law of God by his teaching and his actions. As I have said before, I do not know his heart but I can certainly see the fruit the he has bore and it is dead and rotten. I would never refer anyone to him as one to whom they might turn to find the truth of the Gospel and anyone who currently willingly chooses to follow him I would encourage to leave him and find a good Bible based church that the endeavors to teach the whole council of God.

The Blainemonster said...

Michele Rayburn said she cringed when Warren minced words at Allan's question regarding salvation. My reaction was the same. I hate that. Why can't a straight answer be given? I suppose he's on national television b/c he will indeed give the soft answer. It's why everybody wants to interview Osteen - because he won't say anything controversial (a.k.a. THE TRUTH!)

Christinewjc said...

The following is the most egregious of Warren's statements:

And — and that means we need to unwrap the gift that God has given us, and your past can be forgiven. You can have a purpose for living, and you can have a home in heaven.

There is no mention of sin.
There is no mention of our need to repent of sin.
There is no mention of Jesus' death on the cross - in our place - for our sin - and the forgiveness of sin.

This was the problem that I first noticed about Warren's "Purpose" book several years ago. He tries to preach a "cross-less" gospel.

Not good.

Kevin said...

Guys, I do honestly understand the need to be discerning, and I also believe no one is above critique.

But false teacher and antichrist? If we're going to challenge Warren's statements, let's also be careful with our own words.

There are some charges that are just too serious to be thrown around carelessly.

Just my two cents.

Brian @ voiceofthesheep said...

I'm not throwing around the term 'false teacher' carelessly. It is a very calculated accusation on my part, after years of reading what Warren believes and teaches and hearing what he says when asked (by Alan Colmes, for example) to explain the 'hope' that is in him.

gigantor1231 said...

Kevin

I do not believe that anyone mentioned the Antichrist other than me and I did not say R.W. is him, here is what I said;

'Now, I do not believe that Rick Warren is the Antichrist but he certainly seems to be paving the way for him.'

As far as false teacher is concerned, please tell me how he is not one. He certainly is unwilling to preach the whole Gospel, the whole truth and he is absolutely more than willing to promote his own literary garbage! 'Try Jesus out for 60 days' give me a break, how could one who knows and reverences the one and only true living God and creator of the universe say this? Go on and justify this my friend.

mada77kl said...

I agree with what several have suggested here, that Rick Warren is indeed a false teacher. Nothing has convinced me more than the book, "Deceived on Purpose," by Warren Smith. Smith is a former New Ager, and he carefully documents Rick's New Age leanings. He also shows how Rick plagiarized a great deal from Robert Schuller, and how Rick clearly based his P.E.A.C.E. plan on a similar plan proposed by New Age leader Neale Donald Walsch. This book is well worth the read.

John said...

“And he said to all, ‘If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.'” Stike that, "And he siad to all, If anyone would come after me, let him try me for 60 days and if you don’t like it I’ll give you your money back."
That's a message the Rich Young Ruler would have bought into. That's a message the Sadducee's would have loved, but that isn't a message that Jesus preached.

theoldadam said...

Someone needs to tell Rick W. about the purpose driven God.

Kevin said...

I think "false teacher" is a term best left to describe heretics.

I would not have said things the same way Warren did. BUT, in his defense, he clearly said Jesus is the only way to God.

I'm just urging some caution, my brothers.

gigantor1231 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
gigantor1231 said...

Kevin

Do you think that a heretic can read and recite the Bible? Do demons or those controlled by demons confess Christ as who He is? Luke 4: 34;

'What do you have to do with us Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are--the Holy One of God.'

Jesus is identified by demons a number of times in the N.T. but we know for certain that they are not saved? Obviously it takes more than verbal confession to be among God's elect (I am not saying that works are required for salvation, I am simply saying that after one is saved they bare fruit. Salvation is by grace through faith, it is a gift of God not of works lest any man should boast. see Eph. 2: 8,9), it takes heart belief and baring good fruit! Mt. 7: 20

'So then, you will know them by their fruits.'

James 3: 12;

'12 Can a fig tree, my brothers, bear olives, or a grapevine produce figs? Neither can a salt pond yield fresh water.'

The fruit Warren bares is dead and rotten, and the things he teaches are false! There is not just a little false teaching either, not just a mistake of interpretation. The quantity is vast and egregious. How can this be?

olan strickland said...

Kevin: I think "false teacher" is a term best left to describe heretics.

So do I! And the term is not to be used flippantly but only after careful examination. After all, to call a true prophet a false prophet and a false prophet a true prophet is fatal (1 John 4:1-6). That is to call evil good, and good evil; darkness light and light darkness (Isaiah 5:20).

So you see this is a serious matter either way.

Question: How much or how many destructive heresies does a person have to secretly introduce before he or she is to be considered a false teacher?

Rick Frueh said...

Rick Warren is overly pragmatic, and many times we Arminians tend to be overly accommodating even with a sincere desire to see people saved. Some of his analogies are shallow and even misrepresent the gospel, but I did not see where he succombed to the temptation to say all religions arrive at heaven. I have heard Oral Roberts, Joel Osteen, and even the aged Billy Graham compromise the xclusivity of Christ on national television.

I do not believe Warren did that even when he could have because of the uncomfortable questions by Combs. I am sure Hannity, who is Roman Catholic, believes other religions can save.

olan strickland said...

Rick Frueh: Rick Warren is overly pragmatic.

All false prophets are (Matthew 7:13-27).

gigantor1231 said...

Rick

Warren has just not stated all the truth, only a half truth which is nothing more than a lie wrapped in a piece of baloney. Warren will not state definitively that Jesus Christ is the only way because he caters to the world. He has said however that 'he is placing his money, his bet on Jesus.' Is this certainty Rick? Is this kind of garbage OK with you Rick?

SJ Camp said...

Brain @VOS
IF (and please note I am prefacing my question with "if") Rick Warren truly believes what the transcript records him saying on Fox, should he be considered within the bounds of biblical, orthodox Christianity?

His views would not be within the bounds of biblical Christianity as defined by either our Lord in His earthly ministry or by the Apostles themselves. BUT, sadly, his views are acceptable today as being within the bounds of contemporary Christianity even within the SBC.

There is a word for this beast of beliefs: pragmatism.

but if he truly believes that you can "give Jesus a try or get your money back", and that salvation is based upon you choosing to "unwrap the gift" which results in your sins being forgiven...what are we to make of this from an eternal perspective?

This approach of "Try Jesus" and "You must Unwrap the Gift..." are unbiblical appeals that place salvation as simply a matter of man's own choosing and affinity to whatever part of Jesus they are willing to try.

IOW, this method of gospel preaching cannot save, it can only damn.

Even Allen Colmes saw the ridiculousness of this try Jesus and if you're not completely satisfied I will give you your money back - guaranteed" philosophy.

This is a long way from: "deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Me."

Can we really call him an evangelical leader?

Yes; because he represents what evangelicalism has devolved in becoming.

Is he a proclaimer of the real gospel?

His methodological approach in this discussion certainly would lead us to believe he is not. However, on occasion, I have heard him get the gospel right. In this regard we must be careful to draw absolute conclusions based upon the pragmatics of his approach. But certainly this approach cited here doesn't represent the biblical gospel at all - though he may believe the biblical gospel.

Is he not, in fact, leading people AWAY from Christ and not TO Christ?

In this approach, no question. He did nothing in his interaction with Allen Colmes, for example, to bring him to understanding of the biblical truth claims of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

SJ Camp said...

Michelle
I felt bad for Alan Colmes as he asked in all seriousness how to be saved, and couldn't get a straight answer.

I cringed as Rick Warren danced around the answer and minced words...so cowardly.


Me too.

SJ Camp said...

Olan
Great question Brian! God's Word tells us that we are to beware of false prophets and test the spirits to see whether they are from God.

I agree.

Rick's pragmatism blurs the biblical gospel - as it did in Spurgeon's day. The Baptist Union believed the right things, but their methodologies gave way to a skewed theology which obviously corrupted the very gospel they longed to present.

I believe this to be the case with R. Warren. The Downgrade exists again and it is similar as it was in Spurgeon's day. Methodology distorting theology and even taking precedence over it.

The gospel on this broadcast that Warren presented through his skewed methods was not the biblical gospel at all.

"Try Jesus" is the language of salesmen; "deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Me" is the language of the Savior.

I appreciate your comments here... Thank you.

SJ Camp said...

Christine
There is no mention of sin. There is no mention of our need to repent of sin. There is no mention of Jesus' death on the cross - in our place - for our sin - and the forgiveness of sin.

Bingo! And there was no mention of the resurrection either.

IOW, the biblical gospel was not presented on this program. Period.

Thank you for your thoughts.

SJ Camp said...

John
“And he said to all, ‘If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.'” Stike that, "And he siad to all, If anyone would come after me, let him try me for 60 days and if you don’t like it I’ll give you your money back."

We said my friend! How the modern church today has abandoned the truth claims of our Lord Jesus in order to appeal to the masses and be accepted in the marketplace.

Well done.

Kent Brandenburg said...

You are absolutely correct, Steve. Warren corrupts the gospel in this appearance. Thanks for the post. We must differentiate "try" from "believe." I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, but Warren is. He says he loves Colmes, but if he did love him, he would tell him the truth about Jesus.

Laura said...

Hey I think everyone should watch a fearless pastor like MacArthur being interviewed by Larry King. Youtube has lots of examples!

gigantor1231 said...

Laura

I love to listen to and watch Dr. MacArthur and I do when ever I can. However, I am sure that you are trying to make a point and maybe I know what it is. Perhaps you could tell us what it is!

Michele Rayburn said...

Brian asked, "Is he a proclaimer of the real gospel?

And Steve, you said:

His methodological approach in this discussion certainly would lead us to believe he is not.

However, on occasion, I have heard him get the gospel right. In this regard we must be careful to draw absolute conclusions based upon the pragmatics of his approach.


This is precisely where Rick Warren trips everyone up. His methodology is in his being pragmatic. And being pragmatic means hearing him "get the gospel right" but only "occasionally".

He does that on purpose. He only says enough to keep from alienating people. He'll say more only if he must.

I don't think that he has trouble "getting the gospel right". He just doesn't want to.

He may or may not know exactly what the gospel is, as many Christians don't either. But he's not concerned with getting it right. That's not his focus.

As I said before, with the Church Growth Movement and with Dominionism, the gospel is not their central purpose. It's about numbers, and it's about power.

And that's why his "methodology" is harmful. Because it's subtle in it's deception.

You think he means well, but then you wonder. You think he's proclaiming the real gospel, but sometimes you realize he's not.

Derek Joseph said...

Warren's response, "Try Jesus," was truly a poor choice of words - at least. I think it was probably a poor-suited attempt at telling Colmes to trust Jesus in a light hearted way. But agreed - not a good way to say it.

I didn't watch the whole program - so I don't know if Warren really had the opportunity to talk about Jesus' death and resurrection in detail, or if he was assuming he could get to it through the conversation somehow, but maybe we should look at what he did right -

1) he said what Jesus authoritatively claimed about being 'the way.' That's very wise in a postmodern world. People balk when others speak as though they have authority. As Christians, we should make it clear that we only are repeating our authoritative Lord - so that he's the offense, not us. Our demeanor shouldn't be offensive - our Lord should.

2) he talked about the imago Dei and God's love for people - very well done.

3) he talked about the need for Jesus that we have. Granted, it'd have been nice to hear that unpacked to mean Jesus' righteousness and resurrection, which we know Warren believes, but it was well said, regardless. And he pointed out that Jesus is the only way.

And a side note: you don't need to say repent every time you preach the gospel. Jesus didn't. The apostles didn't. Yes, people need to repent. However, 'believe' is a command. 'Lord' is who Jesus is. So if someone really 'believes in Jesus' they have been regenerated and indeed are repenting. (Which is why the 'lordship' issue is a puzzling issue to us who are reformed... I agree with Sproul's comments on the subject.)

donsands said...

"it'd have been nice to hear that unpacked to mean Jesus' righteousness"

And that's my point. A genuine pastor of the Lord of lords, and the Great Shepherd of shepherds, would do exactly that.

The Scriptures would come forth. But with Rick they don't.

If he said all he said, and then said, "You know what Christmas is all about Allan? It's about Immanuel, God with us. It's about a young righteous girl being pregnant, and her to be husband Joseph wanting to put her away, because he thought she was unfaithful. It's about an angel coming to Joseph that night and telling him that Mary is with child because the Holy Spirit had come upon her, and that the Child in her womb shall be named JESUS, because He shall save His people from their sins".

And there's so much more he could say.
I mean what's wrong wth a pastor who doesn't long to proclaim the Word of?
That's why I think he's not a pastor, but a talented Christian who in his way brought a lot of people together, and called it a church, when I'm sure what it is.
Though there certainly are Christians at Saddleback I'm sure.

Now cpould he be a false teacher, and a deceiver, whose reward will be the wrath of God? I don't know for sure.
I think he's my brother. But perhaps if we ever meet, which is unlikely, and sat and had coffe and talked for a couple hours then the Holy Spirit, and being together may help me understand him more.

Laura said...

My point about John MacArthur is that there is a guy who is fearless in answering questions regarding Christian faith and the bible. I really am tired of leaders like Rick Warren who are more afraid of what man will say rather than what will God say or better yet, what has God said already in His word. I am amazed by the answers John gives in the interviews with Larry King and other guests he brings on to dispute him. He really is quite unshakeable in what he believes.

gigantor1231 said...

Laura

Agree with you whole heartedly!

Strong Tower said...

"I would not have said things the same way Warren did. BUT, in his defense, he clearly said Jesus is the only way to God."

Actually, he doesn't say that. He qualifies it, explaining that Jesus is the authority on that and not RW himself. That denies the Great Commission. The authority has been given to us and Rick flatly denied that to be true. He said it was a gamble. But that denies the blood of Christ and makes it a common thing to be applied willy-nilly, a thing which might not work, but might not. Instead of the blood applied by the High Priest, RW, would have people apply it to themselves. Try it and see if it works, but that not only profanes the perfected blood work of Christ, it actually condemns others by enlisting their belief that it is a way, but not perfect. It condemns in that if it does not work, the try is spent and according to Hebrews there is no satisfaction left if the blood did not do what it was interned to do in the first place. No second chances, which according to RW, is what God is all about.

No, the fact is that RW denies the power of the Gospel to save. He could have told Colmes that Jesus came to save that which was lost. And asked Colmes if he was lost. And if Colmes said no, then RW would have had the obligation to tell him that his sin remains and he is condemned to hell except that he repents and believes. But no, he obfuscates and in doing so denies the Gospel.

There is no getting around it, RW is both a false teacher and an anti-Christ, a heretic, and that can be demonstrated elsewhere in his writing and videos. However, he is a Southern Baptist in high standing among the elitist majoritarians. He is a rich, high-profile political figure, the very kind that the SBC loves to associate itself with as long as they are not Calvinistic. RW claims to be Reformed, and his mentor Schuller was trained in Reformed doctrine. Unfortunately, like the SBC in general, they have rejected the moorings of the Protestant Reformation for a Romanish works based religious system. So some of us call it the Southern Baptist Catholics. For all their distancing themselves from Rome, they are all it, but the kissing of the ring and the fish hats, and baby sprinklings. They are not all that soteriologically different.

Why can he persist. Well, another man named Billy Graham holds to much of what RW calls Christianity, and the SBC dedicated an idol in his likeness commemorating his pragmatic revivalist Finneyesque approach and quasi-universalism. You cannot get the partisans to shoot their cash cows or deny the advantage of name dropping celebs. So, you will not find many whose names carry weight among the mainstream apostasy of the evangelical world denouncing such wolves. After all, they look so cute in their little sheep-suit. And money is money, fame is fame, and a good relationship with the world is to be prized over any real Great Commission work, for peace and prosperity, as RW explains, is where your best life now it is at.

Check out this montage.

Knowing RW's duplicity, he does indeed believe in salvation by works and grace by merited favor. It is unmistakable. Far from announcing that Jesus is the only way, what Warren is doing is to present the "best way". His point in the Purpose, is not that all will not make it to heaven, but that the best life now, and the greatest reward in the after life (sort of chillingly like Islam) is to open the gift of Christ and discover his best for you and do it. He like Schuller are universalistic in their teaching and soft on sin, if the reality of sin even exists in their surreality.

I have to side with those who call him a heretic. Surely though, we peons at the bottom of the SBC power pile, can't know anything about what is right and good and truth.

olan strickland said...

Amen Strong Tower!

From a peon at the bottom of the SBC power pile - Dark Shadows of the Antichrist

gigantor1231 said...

Strongtower

*BINGO* Well said!

2 Timothy 1: 13, 14;

"13 Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.
14 Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you."

The Word of God needs to be guarded from men like R.W.!
R.W. truly bares the characteristics of a man who does not know his Lord and Savior! Look at the fruit people! 'See Mt. 7: 15-23.'

Donsands, you said;

'That's why I think he's not a pastor, but a talented Christian who in his way brought a lot of people together, and called it a church, when I'm sure what it is.'

What does this mean, 'he is a talented Christian'? How do you measure this? He certainly does not know the Word of God and he apparently does not listen to those that do!

1 John 4: 5,6;

"5 They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them.
6 We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error."

How is this talent? Are you referring to his talent of pulling scripture out of context (see P.D.L. in it's entirety)? Is he good at manipulating situations and crowds of people to his advantage? What does any of this have to do with the fruit of the spirit? I have to be honest with you, you really seem to have to stretch to make your point that R.W. is a brother. I hope that he is one but it certainly seems to be obvious that he bares fruit that is antithetical to the truth of God's Word and one who carries God's Spirit.

donsands said...

I think he is talented in that he went to a community and and went door to door and now has a 20,000 member congregation.

Rick has a Baptist background, and I think he may have been saved by the Lord in the Baptist church. Was he called to be a pastor? I don't think so.

He knows the Scriptures like many lay persons do, and these same people have been saved by the Lord, and yet are weak in the Word.

Lot, Abraham's nephew, would most likely be considered an unbeliever in our day, but he was a righteous man.
Samson is in the Hall of Faith, and yet this man seemed to not have faith at all.

Basically, I have to give ground for God's grace with Rick Warren.

There are others who call themselves pastors who I don't give ground, such as Brian McLaren, or Doug Pagitt, or Kenneth Copeland. Though, I don't know their hearts.

That's basically how I see it.

Perhaps you are right and Rick is a false teacher and prophet, and shall be condemned to hell by our Lord.

Maybe I will see him as a false teacher in the future. But for now my heart doesn't see him that way.

gigantor1231 said...

donsands

R.W. has a doctorate from Dallas Theological, I think that he should be held responsible for the training that he has been given, to whom much is given much is expected!

'Lot, Abraham's nephew, would most likely be considered an unbeliever in our day'

The fruit that Lot bore obviously lead those that knew him to come to the conclusion that he was a righteous man, I am sure that today the outcome would be know different. By the way, Lot did need to be saved by the Lord, that is why He sent His Angels, His messengers!
R.W. is a deceived and deluded man evidenced by the fruit that he has bore, perhaps in the future he will produce fruit that is not antithetical to God's word. The gospel he preaches is obviously works centered and driven, he preaches a different gospel. He does preach the truth in part but that is what the devil and his servants are known for doing as well! Warren also yokes himself and those that follow him with unbelievers, Muslims, Mormons, Catholics, Atheists etc... his teaching is very syncretistic as well, he constantly mixes psycho babble and humanistic philosophies and in doing so nullifies God's word. He has promoted himself and his publications before he has promoted Christ and His Word. all of this is very easy to see if you are willing to simply look at the facts in their entirety, read P.D.L., watch the interview from fox news 'Can Rick Warren Save/Change the World", there is no lack of material on R.W. and the vast majority comes directly from his mouth or his pen!
I personally have nothing against Warren, he is a very patient and kind person from all that I have seen and heard but he still needs to be held accountable for the obvious error and lies that he propagates.

donsands said...

"The gospel he preaches is obviously works centered.."

I look at Warren's preaching of the gospel as grace centered.

He does preach a people focused gospel, but it's a grace gospel that he preaches, in my opinion.

And this is the watering down of the gospel in our day.
Human-centered gospel vs. Christ-centered gospel.

I asked a genuine Pastor of the Lord, who truly loved the Word of God, "What do you consider more essential: The glory of God, or the salvation of a human soul?"

He had a difficult time answering, and never did.
I said, "It's the glory of the Lord that is most essential in this world. God deserves glory, no matter how He attains His glory". This pastor had a difficult time with understanding this. I encouraged him that God surely glorifies Himself most in the Cross of Christ, and the salvation of sinners. But He also may decide to glorify Himself in the judgment of sinners.

There are many servants of the Lord who have a mind set that God cares about human souls more than anything else.
And truly, God does care immensely about the souls of the lost. However, He is to be glorified above all.

I know you agree with glorifying the Lord above all. And it's by God's grace that you and I do.
Praise His name and grace forever. Amen.

gigantor1231 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
gigantor1231 said...

donsands

though He would slay me yet I would praise Him. He is worthy!

As far as R.W. is concerned I have heard him preach to the unsaved of their goodness and how God is pleased with them when they are doing what they were made to do. In this video that we saw with Hannity and Colmes he even balked at telling the truth pertaining to those that do not know Christ, he lied, as a pastor he knows that it is his responsibility to tell those he speaks to the truth regarding God's word! Perhaps you and some others can accept this, for the integrity and sake of the Gospel I can not. We have a treasure and it is our responsibility to guard it!
Lastly, since we are speaking of the importance of glorifying the Lord, no matter what the situation or outcome, I think your question was very apt for this conversation;

'I asked a genuine Pastor of the Lord, who truly loved the Word of God, "What do you consider more essential: The glory of God, or the salvation of a human soul?"'

if you believe that it is more important that God be glorified than the salvation of a human soul, I agree with this, then why do you so easily accept Warren's flippant attitude about evangelism methods and saving a soul at any expense, including dishonoring Jesus by using him like some kind of marketing tool?

'Try Jesus for 60 days or I will give you money back, guaranteed!'

R.W. is not ashamed of this, but he should be! The problem is that he does not know who it is he serves and he is willing to go to any means to achieve winning a soul. Of course, the question is 'are there any souls won when the gospel that he preaches is so watered down, so lacking in essential truth that, a qualified decision cannot be made?' This is the epitome of pragmatism, any means to achieve a desired end, even if it means degrading the one and only living God, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Donsands, is this something that we should just wink at?

donsands said...

"then why do you so easily accept Warren's flippant attitude about evangelism methods and saving a soul at any expense, including dishonoring Jesus by using him like some kind of marketing tool?"

I have never suggested I easily accept Warren's preaching.

I have said he is fully man-centered and not Christ-centered in his gospel.

I simply have suggested that I believe he is my brother in Christ. Christ surely could have saved Rick way back when, and he has followed a path of Semi-Pelagianism, and of people-centered, purpose-driven theology.

Seems to me he hasn't studied the whole of Scripture, and so he is an half inch deep, and a hundred miles wide in his doctrine. He has no depth.

Why? I think it's because he has 20,000 members in his congregation, and has sold millions of books, and so he sees this as God blessing him.

I am no fan of Rick Warren at all.

My two mites worth.

gigantor1231 said...

donsands

'I have said he is fully man-centered and not Christ-centered in his gospel.'

and this, a man centered gospel, is a different gospel! The Word of God has some things to say about this and the person who proclaims it and none of it is favorable! This is the character and the heart of what Warren teaches and promotes, it is worldly and fleshly.
Obviously you have every right to call him a brother in Christ, as for myself I see and pray for him as a false teacher. Yes, he has some great qualities about him but he has done so many things that are antithetical to the Word of God and the Body of Christ!

donsands said...

"Obviously you have every right to call him a brother in Christ, as for myself I see and pray for him as a false teacher."

I'm cool with that. God bless you brother.

gigantor1231 said...

donsands

Not meaning to beat a dead horse, what is your opinion that a man centered gospel is not the Gospel of Christ?

donsands said...

The Gospel is surely concerned with lost souls. So it is indeed human focused to a point.

The problem is the zeal for people more than a zeal for Christ.

I think one can still be a Christian, and have these zeals unbalanced, and so the gospel is weakened and shallow. And because it is weak it hasn't the power it might have. However, the gospel saves a soul, and it is the power God uses to save.

I believe God uses Christians all over the world to bring unbelievers into His kingdom. Though many of these Christians may not understand the depth of the Gospel as they should.
I was that way for years, and the Lord used me in immaturity to bring my wife and daughter to Christ.

However, the Lord wants us to mature, and learn the deep things of Christ and His Word.

There are false gospels though.

But Warren's faith statement is the genuine gospel as far as I can see. He began his church on this, and though he is mushy, and shallow, he stands upon the gospel as far as I can see.

He may be a false teacher even with this, but I can say he is.

Here's a short portion of his faith statement:

"ABOUT JESUS CHRIST

Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is co-equal with the Father. Jesus lived a sinless human life and offered himself as the perfect sacrifice for the sins of all men by dying on a cross. He arose from the dead after three days to demonstrate His power over sin and death. He ascended to heaven’s glory and will return again to earth to reign as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Matthew 1:22, 23; Isaiah 9:6; John 1:1-5, 14:10-30; Hebrews 4:14, 15; 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4; Romans 1:3, 4; Acts 1:9-11; 1 Timothy 6:14, 15; Titus 2:13

ABOUT SALVATION

Salvation is a gift from God to man. Man can never make up for his sin by self-improvement or good works – only by trusting in Jesus Christ as God’s offer of forgiveness can man be saved from sin’s penalty. Eternal life begins the moment one receives Jesus Christ into his life by faith.
Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8, 9; John 14:6, 1:12; Titus 3:5; Galatians 3:26; Romans 5:1

ABOUT ETERNAL SECURITY

Because God gives man eternal life through Jesus Christ, the believer is secure in salvation for eternity. Salvation is maintained by the grace and power of God, not by the self-effort of the Christian.
John 10:29; 2 Timothy 1:12; Hebrews 7:25; 10:10, 14; 1 Peter 1:3-5"

gigantor1231 said...

donsands

Well, we will know for certain one day because as we are fully known so shall we fully know the Lord of heaven and earth and each other. I hope you are right in your graciousness but until then I will warn others, expose his false teaching as the need presents and pray that his soul, as well as those that follow him will be drawn to the truth in Christ!

donsands said...

Some good words there G-man. It has been a fine dialog, and you have challenged me. Thanks.

EZEKIEL3622 said...

lovers of self, sad

gigantor1231 said...

ezek3622

If you are going to say something do not be so cryptic, tell us what you are referring to!

Denise said...

Not to put too fine of a point on it, but Rick Warren can't give the Gospel because he doesn't know it nor love it, nor believes it. So it shouldn't be a surprise the man can't proclaim truth with clarity and boldness. He has one and one goal only:to sell himself and his goods.

Every time I hear him in an interview is always boasts about his works or his church's works (which isn't a church, b/c he built this thing FOR God-haters.

What is amazing is that anyone gives him any credibility with Truth whatsoever. He is a liberal hiding in "Christianese". He denies the Sovereignty of God, embraces Roman Catholics as Christians, is pro-Islam, is interfaith, has a false social gospel, has no clue about Repentance and Justification, doesn't teach on Hell, has a low view of God and of Scripture yet a high view of his nonsensical books, etc. He just wants all the religions in the world to unite for social causes, while people crash the gates of hell.

I suggest this article from Slice of Laodicea:

http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/purpose-driven-madness/rick-warren-to-give-invocation-for-pro-child-killing-obama/

To see a recent interview with Warren selling his wares (he reads a "Christmas prayer" straight out of his new book--how's that for humility?): http://www.beliefnet.com/News/2008/12/Rick-Warren-Videos.aspx

Denise said...

More info on Rick Warren:

http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/category/purpose-driven-madness/

See his inter-spiritual quest with "One Sabbath", too:

http://www.alittleleaven.com/2008/12/one-sabbath.html He helps promote:

"This fall, the ONE Campaign is inviting faith communities and believers of all traditions to celebrate the spirit of caring and join in the universal call to help others.

ONE Sabbath and companion programs ONE Seva and ONE Sadaqa will rally believers of all faiths, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus and others, to learn and take action on behalf of people living in extreme poverty and dying from preventable diseases."

This is NOT the Great Commission. This is finding purpose with God-haters at the expense of Truth.

2Co 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?
2Co 6:15 What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever?

2Co 6:16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, "I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Co 6:17 Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you,

Denise said...

http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/purpose-driven-madness/rick-warren-im-not-opposed-to-gays-having-their-partnerships/

“I was trying to point out I’m not opposed to gays having their partnership. I’m opposed to gays using the term marriage for their relationship.” - Rick Warren