Thursday, September 04, 2008

SARAH BARRACUDA
...hockey Mom checks liberals hard - and does it with a smile. Obama and O-Biden have no idea what just hit them!

This is a must see. If you missed this historic speech - here it is. 

If you are a Christian and are neutral on the issues facing our nation today and have no fire to vote this coming election... then your wood is too wet. Here is the new face for family values in the conservative movement and it's a faithful, savvy, unintimidated, down to earth, family centered, Christian, authentic, pro-life, powerful one. 


Money line of the night: SP - "what's the difference between a Hockey Mom and a Pit-bull? Lipstick!"

Enjoy this folks - it doesn't get any better than this during election season.




AND HERE IS RUDY G'S SET UP TO PALIN. HE WAS BRILLIANT!
PART ONE


PART TWO:


PART THREE:

86 comments:

The Blainemonster said...

My wife and I and our FIVE children sat around the living room last night watching Sarah speak. We have never been so excited about any candidate for anything! It's almost hard to believe - she appears to be ONE OF US. Too bad my sons are too young to vote, because they have a new hero in Sarah Palin, probably because she reminds them of their mother! :)

JamesL said...

Steve,
I am definitely not stirring things up as I will gladly vote McCain/Palin in November. Awesome lady...howver what about folks who believe a woman should not work outside of home with children? Also, there are some concerned with women being in positions of authority as being unbiblical.

Rick Frueh said...

Steve - here is an opinion from a non-political believer (me). Palin was incredible in her speech and her family. And here is someone who is not just pro-life in words, but she brings her son to term even while knowing his condition.

And when she looked into the camera and pledged to be an advocate for challenged children, I was moved. Anyone who wasn't impressed had a pre-speech agenda.

So here is a question I am asking myself. Are there people like Sarah Palin whose experience resume should indicate she is not ready, but whose intelligence, character, drive, and overall God given attributes seem to override the normal assessment?

musicmike said...

Jamesl,
I have been pondering the things that you mentioned in your post. Politically speaking, Sarah Palin reminds of Ronald Reagan. She is a breath of fresh air to me concern politics and the Republican Party.

However, since I do want the Word to guide my beliefs and my actions, I am wondering if I am merely being pragmatic in supporting her candidacy. She is an awesomely gifted woman and could be a great blessing even if she remains in a traditional role for a woman. I am a complementarian in my view of women; however, I do know that God has gifted women in areas of organization and leadership. I know that God used Deborah as a judge in the Old Testament. I also know that Jesus had a high view of woman that was scandalous during His time here on earth.

I am going to seek the scriptures and commit this matter to study and prayer.

SJ Camp said...

blainemonster
Too bad my sons are too young to vote, because they have a new hero in Sarah Palin, probably because she reminds them of their mother! :)

That is very cool man.

I am glad that you can appreciate those things in your wife. May your sons grow to respect those same things in their Mom as well.

SJ Camp said...

jamesi
what about folks who believe a woman should not work outside of home with children?

Fair question. The short answer is, a woman should not allow any other thing to supplant the priority of her role with her children. AND, a father shouldn't as well - especially when are at such a young age.

But each family must practically work this out on a daily basis. Can a woman have a job and still not abrogate her role and responsibilities to her family? Yes. But that must be looked at on a case by case basis. To deny that for a woman denies the Proverbs 31 woman who had a world-wide mercantile business that involved many employees, the shipping industry, fields to grow her products, servants, etc. Her husband enjoyed the fruit of her fame and she is praised for these things according to holy writ.

Also, there are some concerned with women being in positions of authority as being unbiblical.

The only two places that a woman is commanded to not have authority over a man is 1. within the home (Eph. 5:22-31); and 2. within the church (1 Tim. 2:10-12).

Otherwise... have at it.

SJ Camp said...

rick
Are there people like Sarah Palin whose experience resume should indicate she is not ready, but whose intelligence, character, drive, and overall God given attributes seem to override the normal assessment?

Great question.

There is not prohibiter constitutionally as to experience or lack of it. It is primarily one of citizenship, character, and age. In a free society someone's resume may not look politically impressive, but their person and character would suggest otherwise.

I believe with Governor Palin we have both. She has served in executive branches of government for 13 years. And her character and personal brilliance give weight to her credentials.

Personally, I really like this woman and am supporting McCain/Palin in this election.

SJ Camp said...

musicmike
I am a complementarian in my view of women; however, I do know that God has gifted women in areas of organization and leadership. I know that God used Deborah as a judge in the Old Testament.

Well said. Thank you.

JamesL said...

Steve,
I appreciate your counsel. That was pretty much my understanding of how the Word guides us in this issue, but I wanted to run it by some experienced folks such as yourself. I think there is a bit of kingdom confusion afoot as well.

James

Douglas said...

What do you think of Voddie Baucham's insights regarding Sarah Palin?

Did McCain Make a Pro-Family VP Pick?
Voddie Baucham
"Conservatives are all aglow as John McCain pulled off an apparent coup d’état this week by naming Sarah Palin as his choice for Vice President. Bob Unruh, writing for the conservative Christian web magazine, Worldnet Daily may have put it best when he opened his column:

Pro-family advocates and Republicans are saying presumptive GOP nominee for president Sen. John McCain may have checkmated Democrat Sen. Barack Obama with his choice of Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin as his vice-presidential running mate.

Everyone from Liberty Counsel to FRC is raving about the political genius displayed by Mr. McCain. It seems Christian conservatives have received the bone they were hoping McCain would throw their way in order to alleviate doubts about his conservative bona fides.
"
Continued in the above link.

The Evangelical Two-Step
Voddie Baucham
"It has been interesting watching evangelicals sing and dance their way around the news of Sarah Palin’s pregnant seventeen year-old daughter. Step One: Use the Bible to motivate and mobilize the Evangelical community behind the Republican candidate. Step Two: Abandon the Bible when its message is inconvenient to ‘our’ candidate. That’s where we are today. After presenting a united front and hailing McCain’s choice, what could the Evangelical crowd say after hearing the news of her daughter’s pregnancy?"
Continued in the above link.

Is Sarah Palin more of a Messianic Image than Barack Obama? Christians seem to be falling all over themselves regarding Mrs Palin, as if she will be the salvation of America. Where does John McCain fit into the whole scheme of things. Is God just using him to prepare the way for Sarah Palin to eventually become the first woman president? A pentecostal woman as the President of the United States of America? That would be interesting. Everyone will have to speak in gibberish or tongues or whatever, won't they?

Douglas said...

Sarah Palin: Dominionist Stalking Horse

God help America if Sarah Palin gets into power! Scary. I sure am glad I live in heathen, pagan New Zealand, at least I know where I stand. New Zealand is also riddled with false prophets and false teachers. We have elections here this year and man it is difficult to know who to vote for.

SJ Camp said...

douglous
I thought Vaudie's article was not balanced and reactionary. And it overstepped the biblical model.

I do understand his point of view. But that's all that it is - an opinion; not biblical fact. And I thought his mentioning of her daughter's pregnancy is out of bounds and not a reflection on the parents at all.

We are all sinners in need of grace everyday. Even Christians can struggle with sin - can't we? We all do in various ways at various times. Does our common depravity excuse our sin or make light of it? No. But instead, it should give us all compassion and humility because we all could fall into all matters of sin except for the grace of God. Amen?

Thanks for your comment brother.
Steve

Brian @ voiceofthesheep said...

Is it not possible to be excited about the McCain/Palin ticket and not be characterized as or guilty of having a messiah complex about them? I sure hope so, because that describes me. I am very excited about McCain's choice of Palin...and at the same time I do not see her (or him) as the salvation of the country or of Christian values.

By the way, the best bumper sticker I have heard of so far is:

"Our mamma can whoop your Obama!"

SJ Camp said...

douglous
God help America if Sarah Palin gets into power!

Why is that?

SJ Camp said...

brian@VOS
I am very excited about McCain's choice of Palin...and at the same time I do not see her (or him) as the salvation of the country or of Christian values.

Amen!

No one is looking to any person as the salvation of this or any other nation. But in a free society we do have choices. And as a Christian I try to evaluate candidates and their respective platforms and convictions through a biblical worldview.

Obama doesn't pass the test of that worldview whatsoever. McCain/Palin do.

Thank you Brian for your wisdom here.

Brian @ voiceofthesheep said...

You are right about that, Steve. Obama certainly does NOT pass any evaluation made through a biblical world view.

jamielynn said...

I love Sarah! She's a breath of fresh air. She seems to be a woman who does have it all. She adores her husband. And he seems to delight in her. It's so wonderful to see a couple in love and enjoying each other after lots of years together.

Carla said...

Brian asked:

"Is it not possible to be excited about the McCain/Palin ticket and not be characterized as or guilty of having a messiah complex about them?"

Of course its possible. :-)

littlegal_66 said...

I started a little glossary this afternoon (had a little time on my hands, lol..). Here's what I've come up thus far:

Sa-rah-nade, n. 1. The sweet melodic lullaby of Sarah Palin’s acceptance speech, (which was music to my ears). 2. The thunderous sound of cheers and applause coming from the audience as she speaks.

Sa-rah-en-i-ty, n. 1. The peace John McCain feels as his head hits the pillow each night, knowing he made such a great choice. 2. The calm self-assurance Gov. Palin exudes from the platform with marked poise and grace.

Pa-lin-tol-o-gy, n. The frantic, desperate, but extremely futile & fruitless scramble by the left-wing media to unearth, dig up, or otherwise "discover" anything scandalous or controversial on the Palin family.

littlegal_66 said...

GLOSSARY (Cont'd.)

Sa-rah-Smile, n. 1. The expression on the faces of the delegation and the television audience as Gov. Palin spoke from the podium of the RNC. 2. The constant expression you see on the faces of political conservatives since Gov. Palin has arrived on the national scene.

Pa-lin-iz-a-tion, n. The sudden realization that Gov. Palin makes the Republican ticket an exciting one and a viable alternative to the Democratic ticket.

Pa-lin-a-tion, n. The process of throwing one’s support behind Gov. Palin after liberal hopes for an Obama/Clinton ticket were doused by the selection of Joe Biden.

* * * * * * *
Brian@VOS:
"My mamma can whoop your Obama."
That is great, brother. I gotta have one.

What a country! :-)

roadwolf said...

Uh, Steve two things:

1. It's Biden, not Obiden... I trust a slip of the finger on the keyboard and not more of the same Bruce "McSharin" line of laughs.

2. About 6 years ago I and my wife-to-be attended your concert in Knoxville TN and were glad to have done so. We gave a donation to your ministry then and as I remember, with my wife being the stickler for our tax deductions for that calendar year, we claimed that deduction with the IRS to a ministry. In light of your foray into political commentary and backing a particular candidate, do I need to retroactively clear that up with the IRS because of your partisan leanings? I would not want to be in violation of any tax code, as I trust you would not want to be as well. Thanks!

SJ Camp said...

roadwolf:
1. No slip of the keyboard - just a little political humor. And it was Brian not Bruce. Was that a slip of the keyboard on your part? :-).

2. This is my personal blog which is not an official part of the nonprofit ministry. It operates independently.

But I do thank you for your prayers and support.

3. I assume you are an Obama supporter? If so, why? If not, who do you like in the Presidential race?

Thanks again for your comment.
Steve

SJ Camp said...

littlegal
Very good on both posts. Great play on words.

Thank you,
Campi

roadwolf said...

Steve,

I was referring to Brian McLaren and if memory serves me correct, you referred to him a Brian McSharin, right? My mistake on the "Bruce". Late night fog on the brain.

And yes, I am supporting Obama, for various reasons that are too lengthy to get into at this point as I am signing off and heading out the door for work.

Thank you for your response.

Chris

SJ Camp said...

roadwolf
Thank you Chris for your honest reply here.

I do have a fundamental question for you: As a Christian, wow can you support a candidate that unashamedly supports the murder of unborn children - even live abortions?

Did you see the Planned Parenthood endorsement he was so proud to receive and how they are targeting African American babies in their campaign on abortion?

I am not a one issue Christian when it comes to weighing ideological convictions surrounding elections. But this issue is so weighty and so severe in what Obama supports, that whatever else he might represent as being plausible in his campaign, is dramatically overshadowed by this undisputed reality.

I am very interested in your thoughts on this.

Grace and peace,
Steve
Psalm 139

Deb_B said...

littlegal
"I started a little glossary this afternoon...."

Clever wordsmith! :-)

Deb_B said...

"I am not a one issue Christian when it comes to weighing deological convictions surrounding elections. But this issue is so weighty..."

Steve, we don't head to the voting booth (or the town hall) with a long list of non-negotiables ... but this one issue for us IS non-negotiable.

However, we faced an awful choice in one election years ago and we did vote...

It was the single most difficult political vote of our lives to date. It was in our home state, the Louisiana Governor's election between Edwin Edwards and David Duke.

It was the first time tears flowed as I reached up to flip the lever for Governor. The choices had always been so much more definitive in previous elections - not always easy choices, but ultimately clear in the end.

How do you choose between a man [Duke] who had still been celebrating Hitler's birthday two years earlier and a man who smeared himself [Edwards] with fake blood, in a mock crucifix?

What a choice.

Dave Algie said...

Hi Steve

I cannot speak for Roadwolf. And I am not sure I would vote for Obama if I could. (I am a proud New Zealander.)

It may seem like semantics to you, Steve, but Obama has been careful in some interviews I have seen to draw a distinction between wanting abortions to happen and wanting access to abortion to remain legal. As you probably know, this is a common stance for liberals on this issue to take. It is equally routine for pro life advocates to dismiss this as nonsense, ignore the distinction and declare that the likes of Obama "aggressively support abortion." creating an image of such people as eager proponents of infanticide.

Now I understand this view of the situation, which I beleieve you hold, Steve, and respect not only the argument you make but also the righteousness of your anger as you do so.

My question, which I have seen touched on briefly in previous postings on COT is; do you think it is possible for a good or decent person to believe abortion is a tragedy but believe it should not be made illegal? I believe Mitt Romney has held this view for much of his political life. I also believe that (his Mormonism aside) you have said that Romney was a "nice guy." or something of the sort. Did Romney only become a decent fellow after he decided abortion should be illegal after all? Or is it possible for decent people- misguided or otherwise- to believe that abortion should not be illegalised?

If people take the latter view it might be possible for them to see Obama as a decent person and, admiring his stance on other issues, consider voting for him.

SJ Camp said...

Dave
Thanks for your insights and question.

You said, do you think it is possible for a good or decent person to believe abortion is a tragedy but believe it should not be made illegal?

If they haven't thought through the issues or are in transition in weighing the pros and cons of this important moral decision.

I would reckon it to a member of the Roman Catholic Church who doesn't really know what Rome teaches, and still affirms them as "Christian." If they are in transition and researching their teachings historically and biblically... then I understand that context. But if that proponent of Romanistic doctrine is a Roman Catholic priest and not just another member of that church, it carries more weight and thus, more consequence to what they say. They have moved in position from devotee to the devil.

Obama is not just "a member" - he is the priest. He understands very well what abortion entails. And to him it means not just "a woman's right" to first trimester abortion for the health of the mother - but he is very aggressive and supportive on partial birth abortion AND live abortion. That is hardly - "good and decent."

Remember, he said of his own daughters that if they "made a mistake" early in their lives, he would not want them punished with a baby. To him childbirth is punishment - not life to be embraced. When the destruction of human life within the womb of a mother becomes a matter of convenience... then I believe you have what Scripture refers to in Romans 1 as a "seared conscience."

Steve

Dave Algie said...

Thanks Steve, for your quick and gracious reply.

I think I understand your point although I cannot be sure my understanding of your Obama/priest analogy is exactly what you meant.

You say Obama understands what abortion entails. I presume you mean the horror and tragedy of the procedure, the snuffing out of a life. I guess you are right; he has certainly been told of the heartwrenching details and he seems like an intelligent man. He should surely see the inhuman awfulness of it. However, while you or I believe that for these reasons the procedure should be outlawed, there are those who believe that outlawing or banning abortion will only create more horror and unhappiness. You and I will see this as perhaps illogical, maybe even ridiculous. But this seems to be what people believe, Steve, and many of them may seem good and decent.

Interestingly, you didn't seem to me to really address this point exactly in your reply to me. The argument whether prohibiting abortion will cause it to decrease isn't quite as straightforward as a declaration that abortion is evil. Is this why we avoid it and fall back on cliches about Obamacide and Obamanation?

One more point Steve, if I may. The horrors of late abortion and partial birth abortion are sickening. But in constantly emphasizing the barbarity of these particular procedures, aren't we who believe with McCain that "life begins at conception" undermining the idea that any kind of abortion is equally repellent?

Dave Algie said...

Sorry, Steve, one more thing. I have seen the "penalised with a baby" quote many times. Do you have the original source somewhere?

I can scarcely believe someone could make such a ghastly comment and would just like to know for certain it was said as quoted.

SJ Camp said...

It is on YouTube. It is a direct quote.

Campi

SJ Camp said...

Dave

To be clear for you: all abortion is murder. I am against it all. That has not varied.

I don't believe someone is "good and decent" who believes in taking another life - especially when it comes to the defenseless helpless unborn.

It is truly an Obamanation.

Question for you: why are you seemingly trying to make excuses for Obama?

Dave Algie said...

Thanks Steve. I found the "punished with a baby" quote straight away, on You Tube as you said.

Still an awful quote, but in the context, he isn't talking about abortion as you seem to have intimated, he is talking about contraception. We need to be careful about the way we present information. You have, I think, used this quote before as a lead in to a damning indictment on Obama for abortion. This kind of thing makes me feel slightly uneasy. By all means, attack Obama's policies and highlight the deficiencies you see in his character. But be careful to be as accurate as possible in your attacks. We don't want to inadvertently mislead people even when the gist of what we are saying is true.

And that leads in to my answer to your fair question as to why I seem to be "making excuses for Obama".

Honestly, I have not here been seeking to make excuses for Obama but rather to challenge ourselves to be fair and honest and careful with the truth even as we challenge things we rightly despise. As a fan of your music from my youth, Steve I was delighted to find COT, this window into the thoughts of someone I respect so much, along with many others of similar passion and sincerity who post here. My only misgiving has been to see at times on here on COT (as with all of us in everyday life), passion and sincerity leading to the occasional jumping to conclusions, sweeping generalizations and overuse of pejorative language.

I have also been guilty of all of these, if not here on COT then certainly in my day-to-day life.

I have been grateful to have discovered COT and have found I have learned so much just through reading the thought-provoking food for thought it is so rich in.

I won't be voting for Obama. Sarah Palin gave a fantastic speech the other night and an energized Republican party may well win the election. There is much for conservatives to be happy about and I do not want to detract from it by being seen to be whitewashing Obama.

Thanks again Steve for the opportunity you provide her for people to speak their mind on such important issues.

Deb_B said...

For those reading here who may not have picked up the source link to the Illinois State Senate transcript which contains Obama's dialogue regarding abortion/infanticide, I am including the link at the bottom of this comment.

The transcript contains, in context of the whole, very disturbing comments by Obama regarding infanticide as it relates to failed abortions resulting in living, breathing, moving babies.

Moreover, Obama has been considerably less than honest about those comments initially. Here lately, he has simply ignored the marked contrast between what he claimed he said during that Senate dialogue a short while ago and what he really said at the time.

It's not simply a case of "misremembering" with the passage of time.

Once again, I encourage folks to follow the source link and to read the Obama comments in context. That said, onward...

In the Senate transcript [link follows], Barry Obama reveals in his own words a far greater concern for protecting abortion doctors from any kind of legal liability, than he did for protecting born alive babies.

Or, to use Obama's own words, "they’re not just coming out limp and dead.” To wit:

Obama: "I expressed some concern about, was what impact this would have with respect to the relationship between the doctor and the patient and what liabilities the doctor might have in this situation."

Obama: "I think it’s important to understand that this issue ultimately is about abortion and not live births."

LINK to State of Illinios 92nd General Assembly Regular Session Senate Transcript, April 4, 2002. Quotes above taken from pp.31-34, in particular:

http://www.ilga.gov/senate/transcripts/strans92/ST040402.pdf

SJ Camp said...

Dave
The initial context may have been contraception; but make no mistake about it, the over arching issue which his comment was directed was abortion. Even the secular media agreed with that conclusion.

flipov411 said...

Steve, you wrote:

"If you are a Christian and are neutral on the issues facing our nation today and have no fire to vote this coming election... then your wood is too wet."

Perhaps, as long as all your qualifiers hold. However, many believers are wrestling harder than ever this year about such matters at a much deeper, more complicated level that puts them in a very real dilemma of conscience:

1) They are NOT neutral on the issues facing our nation today.
2) They would GLADLY vote in this election, but...
3) They have learned by experience to be distrustful of campaign propaganda and window dressings.
4) They no longer accept the "lesser of two evils" argument that godless politicians and foolish ECBs have used to bully and manipulate them for the last 20 years or so.
5) They come with a heavy heart to the hard-fought conclusion that they cannot in good conscience affirmatively approve any current candidate -- attractive running mate or no.

It seems to me that those who put their trust in God should keep in mind what the three main streams of American politics are fundamentally urging upon us:

Democrats: "Delight yourself in big-government egalitarianism and leftist pressure politics, and you will have the desires of your heart."

Republicans: "Delight yourself in big-government capitalism and right-wing pressure politics, and you will have the desires of your heart."

Libertarians: "Delight yourself in limited government and free markets, and you will have the desires of your heart."

To those who are tempted to charge that this is an unbiblical response or that it somehow constitutes sin in the form of arrogance or abandonment, I would respectfully offer Paul's discussion in Romans 14 about respecting one another in matters of conscience and Christian liberty.

Curt Olson

SJ Camp said...

Deb_B
Really strong post. Thank you.
Campi

theoldadam said...

Obama is a young man with tired, old, and failed ideas.

Palin represents change...for the better.

SJ Camp said...

Curt
Thank you for your well thought comment. Always appreciated here.

I think your foundational premise is a bit flawed though. There is really never a time where the candidates entire platform or ideology is completely agreeable to all of us. That is unrealistic.

But to avoid being involved in the process as a citizen to cast a vote should not be a process that produces consternation and doubt or apathy.

To not vote is to adopt Obama's logic of "present." :-). He couldn't decide either on a simple yes or no - so he chose - present. In a free society you have the right to not vote... of course. But as a Christian at this point and junction in our nation's history, may I ask specifically, what leaves you "undecided" in terms of policy or platform with the candidate of your choosing? IOW, if your candidate of choice changed their minds on xyz - would that then encourage you to change your mind to vote for said candidate?

Help me understand your views more thoroughly - because not voting to me is the inability to not discern the issues before us all and to take for granted the God-given freedoms we all share in this nation.

Again, you don't have to vote. But I would think the issues are profound enough currently on several levels for Christians to apply a strong biblical worldview to them and even use the conversation on those issues as a point of being a voice for the gospel as well.

Let me know your thoughts.
Campi

SJ Camp said...

Curt
One quick other thing:

You said, Democrats: "Delight yourself in big-government egalitarianism and leftist pressure politics, and you will have the desires of your heart."

Republicans: "Delight yourself in big-government capitalism and right-wing pressure politics, and you will have the desires of your heart."

Libertarians: "Delight yourself in limited government and free markets, and you will have the desires of your heart."


I don't know anyone who thinks that such and such a candidate will grant them the desires of their hearts. That is a spiritual issue, not a political one.

However, government's role biblically in a very general way is to restrain evil and maintain the social peace and order of its citizenry.

So per your definitions of the above, a few changes might be in order.

Dems: big government welfare state provisional entitlements...

GOP: less government, free market capitalism and self initiative...

Libs: you got it right.

Politically I am a conservative - not a Republican. I primarily vote Rep. but have voted on occasion for a Dem when their ideology and convictions pass my worldview test.

I also agree that the lesser of two evils mentality is old tired escapism. Not where I am at - at all.

But I am faced with a choice in this election. I have read hundreds of pages of material on all the candidates and have made my decision whom I will vote for. Is my candidate of choice representing all of my personal concerns on issues the way I think they should be? Not by a long shot. But the core of the candidate I am supporting and the essential issues do.

Ultimately, no matter who gets elected will be my President as a citizen of this nation. God is Sovereign. I will pray for them and honor their leadership. Not blindly of course, but out of humility and biblical command (Titus 3:1-2).

Steve

Alice said...

I certainly don't want to answer for Curt, and I also don't necessarily want to open up this particular can of worms. However, as a Christian who is not, and has never been, in favor of the war in Iraq...yes. Choosing a candidate still has its difficulties.

flipov411 said...

Steve wrote,

"There is really never a time where the candidates entire platform or ideology is completely agreeable to all of us. That is unrealistic."

I completely agree -- to a point. Like you, I have tended to vote Republican, except in rare state/local elections where the choice was a pro-life Democrat vs. a pro-abortion Republican. Unfortunately, somewhere during the last few years, we passed a tipping point where I finally accepted that "Republican" no longer means "conservative," and the "lesser of two evils" argument is a fraud that keeps gullible conservatives tethered to candidates who have no intention of following through on their campaign rhetoric.

"To not vote is to adopt Obama's logic of "present." :-)."

Absolutely not, Steve! To both major candidates I say decisively, "NOT YOU" and "NOT YOU." Why? Because whichever one wins, his first official act will be to swear to defend and protect a Constitution he has demonstrably, by his record, soiled and disregarded. Either way, it will be a lie. I cannot affirmatively approve of this by my vote, even though one candidate seems to be a lesser evil.

Leaving the ballot blank is probably not a good idea for a Christian citizen. There will be third parties listed that are probably a better way to make the point. I know who they are.

Regarding my admittedly oversimplified descriptions of Democrat, Republican and Libertarian perpspectives, you responded,

"I don't know anyone who thinks that such and such a candidate will grant them the desires of their hearts. That is a spiritual issue, not a political one."

Not so fast! First, I deliberately put it the way I did to remind us as believers where our delights and hearts desires should truly be invested -- and it's not in politics. Second, did you not hear the sweeping, over-reaching nearly messianic promises offered up at both conventions during the last two weeks? To me there seems to be a definite spiritual appeal there, especially to those who have no hope in Christ. (Yikes! This could take us down a whole different road, but I have real work to do this afternoon.)

I hope this helps clarify somewhat. I'll be happy to respond more if needed. I don't have a blog of my own and I don't often post comments to blogs like this because I usually find myself outclassed in this kind of written give and take. I think and write just too darn slow.

Here's something I do much better:

"http://www.trackseventeen.com/soundscapes/"

Curt Olson

gigantor1231 said...

S.J.

I have to admit, I have a difficult time being excited over any of this because when you get right down to it, it is all of the flesh. Render to Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God! The crux is that it is all God's and He will always be the one to say what the outcome is. I will vote, but my vote will only be of benefit in accordance with His will!

The Spokesman said...

To those who are decided and are voting their conscience on the abortion issue and in as much are serving their Lord - Amen and grace and peace!

To those who are wrestling harder than ever this year about such matters at a much deeper, more complicated level that puts them in a very real dilemma of conscience, here is a link to a sermon, The Church in the Political Process, that may help you to properly serve your Lord without violating your conscience.

Grace and peace,
Olan

Rick Frueh said...

Steve - I do not participate in the political process as a matter of conscience. I do not judge anyone who does, but I consider it a personal compromise. I pray for them all, and I do not complain.

I respect believers who take moral stands but there are those of us who choose not to. It stems from my anationalistic view, meaning I am an American because they say so, but my allegience is totally to Christ. I do not pledge allegience to the flag or sing the national anthem, but I absolutely do not make a spectacle about it nor do I judge anyone.

I just wanted to let you know that there are those of us who do not make waves or trumpet our own horns, but have been led to withdraw peacefully and quietly from the political process. This does not keep me from admiring the people in the military who sacrifice their lives for their beliefs, or people like you who attempt to bring Biblical truth to politics.

It doesn't keep me from admiring people like Gov. Palin, or Ronald Reagan, or George Washington, or anyone else. I hope you can understand. Thanks.

flipov411 said...

"the spokesman" wrote,

"...here is a link to a sermon, The Church in the Political Process, that may help you to properly serve your Lord without violating your conscience."

Thank you very much, Olan. (Is that you speaking?)

This excellent Bible message pretty much captures and affirms the direction my heart is heading -- without all the half-baked political blather I inflicted on you all here today.

Curt Olson

The Spokesman said...

Curt,

That is not me speaking. I ran across this at Sermonaudio.com while I was uploading one of my sermons. The pastor's name is Gil Rugh. Here is the URL that will take you to the page the sermon is on - http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=95081114360

Grace and peace,
Olan

Douglas said...

"Pa-lin-tol-o-gy, n. The frantic, desperate, but extremely futile & fruitless scramble by the left-wing media to unearth, dig up, or otherwise "discover" anything scandalous or controversial on the Palin family."

Ya had all better get on the ol tele-phone and give Christian Post a ticking off about their "frantic, desperate, but extremely futile & fruitless scramble by the, ummmm, ****left-wing media***** (I aint don't fink errmmm christian post dot com is left ding media though) to unearth, dig up, or otherwise "discover" anything scandalous or controversial on the Palin family."

Pentecostalism Obscured in Palin Biography
By Associated Press Writer
Eric Gorski and Rachel Zoll
Fri, Sep. 05 2008 10:18 AM EDT

Bad, bad, bad Christian Post Dot Com eh? Diggin up dirt on Ms. Palin's background.

"She used traditional evangelical language in praying that a natural gas pipeline be built in Alaska and that the U.S. mission in Iraq was a "task that is from God." Yet she's also said she would not force her views on others.

"The U.S mission in Iraq was a task that is from God?" aaaaaEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeee!!! Scripture and verse please. Or is that extra-biblical revelation she received while she was hunting and shooting walrus's from helicopters or wrestling polar bears out there on the frozen ice? Her brain's more likely frozen than anything else, eh? And she may end up one day as a pres???? Of the U.S. of A.????? Horrors. I hope all those nukes you folks have stashed in ya cornfields and deserts and under the sea are all facing upwards and sideways your way and not downwards and sideways our way. Crikey. Post all those keys, that unlock that red button, down here quick smart.

That lady sounds real purpose driven to me. Yikes.

Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely - guess

alleghanybaptist said...

Anyone who has doubts as to whether it is biblically 'ok' for a woman to hold office might be interested in reading a little John Knox (yes, the great reformer).

In his work "The First Blast of the Trumpet Against the Monstrous Regiment of Women (1558)" available online, he makes in my opinion, a solid, biblical, God gloryifying case against having a woman in public office.

Personally, althought I am pleased with Palin's views and political positions, I am disturbed at the prospect of a woman holding such authority over a nation, and having men, other than her husband, holding authority over her! Very unbiblical! See I Cor. 11:8-10. Here's a taste of John Knox...

"First, I say, that woman in her greatest perfection was made to serve and obey man, not to rule and command him. As St. Paul does reason in these words: "Man is not of the woman, but the woman of the man. And man was not created for the cause of the woman, but the woman for the cause of man; and therefore ought the woman to have a power upon her head" [1 Cor. 11:8-10] (that is, a cover in sign of subjection). Of which words it is plain that the apostle means, that woman in her greatest perfection should have known that man was lord above her; and therefore that she should never have pretended any kind of superiority above him, no more than do the angels above God the Creator, or above Christ their head.[38] So I say, that in her greatest perfection, woman was created to be subject to man......Against God can nothing be more manifest than that a woman shall be exalted to reign above man; for the contrary sentence he has pronounced in these words: "Thy will shall be subject to thy husband, and he shall bear dominion over thee" (Gen. 3:16). As [though] God should say, "Forasmuch as you have abused your former condition, and because your free will has brought yourself and mankind into the bondage of Satan, I therefore will bring you in bondage to man. For where before your obedience should have been voluntary, now it shall be by constraint and by necessity; and that because you have deceived your man, you shall therefore be no longer mistress over your own appetites, over your own will or desires. For in you there is neither reason nor discretion which are able to moderate your affections, and therefore they shall be subject to the desire of your man. He shall be lord and governor, not only over your body, but even over your appetites and will." This sentence, I say, did God pronounce against Eve and her daughters, as the rest of the scriptures do evidently witness. So that no woman can ever presume to reign above man, but the same she must needs do in despite of God, and in contempt of his punishment and malediction."

Joel

Douglas said...

Examining Palin's Pentecostal Background

"On June 8, Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin dropped in on the Wasilla Assembly of God, the church she and her family attended until 2002. During the service, she addressed a group of young missionaries and said she had a "word" from the Lord for them. She prayed that Jesus would give them a spirit of wisdom and revelation.

"That spirit of revelation also including the spirit of prophecy that God's going to tell you what is going on, and what is going to go on, and you guys are going to have that within you, and it's going to bubble up and bubble over and it's going to pour out throughout the state of Alaska," Palin said at the time.
"

"During the service, she addressed a group of young missionaries and said she had a "word" from the Lord for them."

Yes. And what was it? Was it the clear exposition of the Scriptures, from Scripture alone or was it some extra-bilical revealtaion that many pentecostals seem to receive, which is very difficult to verify whether it is true or not and often causes much heartache, or was it her very own thoughts of what God said?

"That spirit of revelation also including the spirit of prophecy that God's going to tell you what is going on, and what is going to go on, and you guys are going to have that within you, and it's going to bubble up and bubble over and it's going to pour out throughout the state of Alaska."

Huh???? Bubble up and bubble over???? I have heard that sort of thing said in pentecostal churches many times before and quite frankly it is nonsense and biblically unsound.

You folks are singing the praises of this woman??? Man. Where is the discernment in the church today. Oh, I aint read Mr. Chalies book on discernemt yet, once I do I'll be able to discern all the falsehood that is going around left, right and center. It is as if all discernment has flown out the window. If it is not "purpose drivenism" it is "seeker-sensitivism" or "church growthism" or "word of faith/prosperity gospelism" or "cultisms" or "pentecostalisms," the "isms" in the 21st century church seem never ending. I suspect if it were possible to even deceive God's very elect.

Deb_B said...

"You folks are singing the praises of this woman??? Man. Where is the discernment in the church today."

Yep, as an honest political leader who took on and defeated the political purveyors of many decades of entrenched corruption in her state, I sure AM "singing her praises" ... both as mayor and subsequent Governor of the great State of Alaska and as a candidate for Vice President of these United States.

So, your argument is what? She's unfit to be VEEP based on her personal Christian faith, which is charismatic in its expression?

Ummmm, if one presumes we're going to hold all four candidates to the same level of inquiry in this regard, methinks it's going to be a very interesting 60 days - including thorough examination of the backgrounds of each candidate's life-long religious affiliations - isn't it?

That notwithstanding, apparently irrespective of her personal faith, 86% of the state of Alaska has discerned Governor Palin's leadership, both at the mayoral level and as its Governor, to be most excellent.

Me too, especially as I learn more about how she has run the city of Wasilla and the great state of Alaska.

Also, it appears Gov Palin has yet to suggest to the Alaskan State Legislative body that it convene and introduce legislation to impose a state church on its fair citizens.

Although I must admit, it seems that in Gov Palin's maiden address to the self-serving, corrupt Legislative body, she did point out "You are in need of adult supervision."

Gov Palin then went on to provide that "adult supervision" by rooting out corruption wherever she found it, thus prosecuting the office of Governor of the great state of Alaska ... just as the citizens elected her to do so.

Shudder! Imagine THIS: A GOVERNOR of a STATE which is part of a nation once founded as "one nation under God" had the temerity to accept invitations to speak at Churches of all persuasions, both charismatic and non-charismatic, all across Alaska.

This might almost lead one to think Gov Palin actually believes in the personal right to religious freedom our Constitution provides for ... all with a perfectly grand understanding of just how our founding fathers framed that marvelous document. What a throwback, eh?

Deb_B said...

Now as to Gov Palin's personal Christian faith, which her record indicates she has never attempted to legislate and thus impose state-wide on her fellow citizens...

Surely, Douglas, you don't share the views of the two AP writers who earlier this week in their breathlessly uninformed article contended that Governor Palin fibbed when she dared to call herself a "Christian" ... when she's really a "Pentecostal"? (Actually, she was raised, saved and baptized in the Wasilla Assembly of God. Though Gov Palin and her family have had a new, nondenominational Church home since 2002.)

Douglas, are you implying Bible-based charismatics aren't Christians? Just curious.

My charismatic friends with whom I have peripheral disputations, but who hold to the same foundational tenets of Biblical Christianity as I do, are sure going to be surprised to find out we Christians don't consider them ["Pentecostals" - i.e. "charismatics"] to be counted amongst the brethren.

Wow!

littlegal_66 said...

douglas---
First of all, just to be clear, (and as deb_b mentioned), this article was not written by "The Christian Post," nor was it written by staff reporters for the Post. It was written by the official religion reporters for the Associated Press, and the item was picked up by the Christian Post and posted on their site. So the Christian Post didn't really "dig this up"; AP reporters did. The Post simply chose to run the story. (Incidentally, Rachel Zoll, one of the writers, has a history of "rave reviews" of conservative Christians in her journalistic endeavors, such as this glowing comment from one of her articles published in January of this year: "Conservatives waged a long, vicious campaign for control of the Southern Baptist Convention in the 1970s and '80s to wipe out any moderate or liberal thinking in seminaries, churches and Baptist agencies.")

Secondly, you consider the Palin story "dirt?" Disturbing? That's the worst thing on the Palins that the Palintologists could come up with? Where are all the "concerned" AP writers on this story: "Michelle's Boot Camp For Radicals"? Now this item is of concern to me. (I was driving on the interstate in a downpour last night when a radio talk show host was reading this article on the air, and I almost had to pull off the road).

Deb_B said...

"Yet she's [Palin] also said she would not force her views on others.

Oh my! They fear the power of prayer and God? Good, even the demons believe and tremble, so I'm not overly surprised the secularists do likewise when their false demi-gods are threatened.

The demi-god of Roe v Wade must be unconditionally worshiped. Though all else be lost, we must continue to sacrifice our unborn young on the altars of convenience. Cain, your brother's blood is crying to Me from the ground... Forty million and counting.

Gov Palin is not only a pro-life charismatic Christian, but she is experientially pro-life and we can't have THAT a "heartbeat from the Presidency, can we?

I ask again, Douglas, in light of the lengthy, verifiable religious history of other candidates in this Presidential race, how does her charismatic faith versus her proven record as City Councilwoman, Mayor and, now, Governor, disqualify her from VEEP consideration?

All indications thus far are that Gov Palin has upheld both her State and the US Constitutions - and has done so well enough to engender an 86% approval rating.

Nevertheless, shame on her cause she studies the Scriptures and has the audacity to pray and seek God's will as GOVERNOR? Mercy - nay, mercy TWICE! She's charismatic in the expression of her Christian faith and we can't have that! Bring on the dunking chair and Town Square stocks!

Nope, I'm not trying to elect "just Christians", or even just Republicans - that's my point; it is her proven ability to govern justly and rightly, based on her concrete thirteen year record as an elected leader in Alaska.

Insomuch as it is possible in our PoMo society, I'm trying to vote for and elect honest, honorable leaders who will govern rightly and justly without being respectors of people. Leaders who will uphold our Constitution and Bill of Rights as our founding fathers originally intended we govern ourselves.

I won't indulge myself overly much in speculations - and that is ALL what follows is - but it is quite interesting to observe the most unlikeliest of ascensions over the last thirteen years from PTA to City Council to Mayor to the Governor of the great State of Alaska to candidate for Vice President of these United States.

Barak, meet Deborah? ... food for thought.

gigantor1231 said...

Douglas

Mockery of your brothers and sisters in Christ, whether you agree with them or not, is not becoming of you!

Deb_B said...

"Barak, meet Deborah? ... food for thought."

It occurs to me some clarification of the above may be in order, given the similitude of the Biblical name Barak, to that of the Presidential candidate.

In the statement above, I am of course alluding to the Biblical Barak and Deborah in Judges 4 & 5.

Sorry for my prior oversight!

littlegal_66 said...

Okay, back from the 4+ hours of gridiron distraction.

deb_b said:
"It occurs to me some clarification of the above may be in order, given the similitude of the Biblical name Barak, to that of the Presidential candidate.......I am of course alluding to the Biblical Barak...."


Yes, but don't you just love the irony! :-)

Deb_B said...

littlegal
"Yes, but don't you just love the irony! :-)"

Aye, but I was so focused at the time I penned it, I actually missed the sheer irony of it initially.

Then, as I was re-reading Judges, the similarities of the two names hit me in one of those How could I have missed that? moments! ;-)

Godspeed, our creative Wordsmith!

Terry Rayburn said...

1. The issue isn't whether Sarah Palin's "Statement of Faith" is exactly what we might think it should be.

The question is, "Which ticket is the best choice?"

2. If you're Socialistic or Fiscally Liberal (bigger Government, higher taxes, redistribution of wealth), then Obama/Biden is the obvious choice.

Likewise, if you're Socially Liberal (Pro-Abortion, same-sex marriage rights, Liberal judicial activisism where the Supreme Court legislates from the bench), then Obama/Biden is the obvious choice.

3. On the other hand, if you're Fiscally Conservative (smaller Government, lower taxes, more financial freedom), McCain/Palin is the obvious choice.

Likewise, if you're Socially Conservative (Pro-Life, traditional marriage, strict-constructionist Constitutionalism), McCain/Palin is the obvious choice.

4. That's why those of us who are Fiscally and Socially Conservative (of the Christian variety) are so excited about Sarah Palin.

Not because she is theologically perfect, but because she is so much better than Obama and Biden regarding Fiscal and Social ideology.

Blessings,
Terry

Only Look said...

Well said Terry and I know Steve knows this as well. We must remember that we are not voting at any denominational conventions or for any Pastor here. This has to do with what we have been given to do as stewards of this nation.

Another reason I don't dare vote for Hussein

Deb_B said...

"The question is, 'Which ticket is the best choice?'"

Exactly, Terry. Excellent "bullet point" post!

JustJan said...

God has given us a number of examples where character in leadership mattered much more than experience.

Here in my office we have access to our clients' most personal financial information. My office manager has no previous experience in this industry. She isn't particularly good with technology. She is a godly woman of good character.

I can teach her to run the office. I can send her to training classes on technology. But character is not something you can teach.

I cannot help but like Sarah. She seems genuine, honest and transparent about who she is. I had come to a place where I fully believed that someone like her would never never never be able to move that far up the political ladder. For just that little crumb, I am encouraged.

I do not know if this is where God has called her. I do not know if this is outside the biblical construct for women. I do know that my brothers in Christ do a great deal of damage when they state emphatically that a woman's highest calling is to raise children, as it hurts sisters who are single and married sisters who are childless.

Deb_B said...

As decision time and November 5th nears, an inaugural thought from George Washington...

"No compact among men...can be pronounced everlasting and inviolable, and if I may so express myself, that no Wall of words, that no mound of parchment can be so formed as to stand against the sweeping torrent of boundless ambition on the one side, aided by the sapping current of corrupted morals on the other."
-George Washington 1789 - draft of first Inaugural Address

[Source: George Washington: A Collection, W.B. Allen, ed. (454)]

Michelle said...

As a mom and a wife who is seeking to live to the glory of God and His wonderful design for women, I am very troubled by the role model Sarah Palin is to Christian women, too many of whom have already believed the feminist lie of the enemy and wordly wisdom that they can "do it all". Sarah Palin's family needs her. Yes, the Proverbs 31 woman was industrious and an astute business woman, but all her energies were spent with the good of her home as her motivation, her primary responsibility.

The church desperately needs godly older women who, according to Titus 2, will teach the younger women where God has designed a mother's sphere of influence to be. Otherwise the Word of God will continue to be blasphemed in this way (Titus 2:5). It's that serious.

JustJan said...

Michelle,

I am thankful that you have found your calling at home raising children.

If you are not already aware let me point out that we are about 53 trillion dollars in debt as a nation. That is about 120,000 per person. 5 kids and 2 parents is $840,000 as the Palin family's share.

As a nation we cannot continue to sustain the programs we have already put in place. We certainly cannot afford to institute new programs. Sarah can do her family and many other families in this country a lot of good by bringing some of the fiscal responsibility she has previously demonstrated to Washington. The burden of debt our generation has created must be addressed. For all of the education and sophistication the Washington crowd might have, the cannot get around the simple truth that you cannot continue to spend more than you make.

Now this does not mean that God calls all women to work outside the home while trying to raise a family. Anyone who uses this as an excuse to justify doing what they want without prayerful regard to God's will is foolish.

It also doesn't mean that all women are called to be full time homemakers and mothers.

Let us trust that Sarah is smart enough to have prayerfully considered God's will for her.

Michelle said...

Uh, Justjan, no. Titus 2 doesn't say that only those mothers who are called, or feel led, or have prayed about it, should be keepers at home. To suggest that Sarah Palin can best serve her family by bringing fiscal responsibility to Washington is sad, she is called to invest her time in the precious lives that have been entrusted to her and to be a helper to her husband. This is true women's liberation, but foolishness to those who walk in darkness.

Godly women living obediently to His Word in the very high calling as wives and mothers is desperately needed - the spiritual health of our families and churches is at stake. Our witness to the world is at stake. What a huge responsibility we have. It is far more than simply staying at home and "raising children".

Deb_B said...

Jan
"It also doesn't mean that all women are called to be full time
homemakers and mothers.

"Let us trust that Sarah is smart enough to have prayerfully considered
God's will for her."


I trust you would agree that Sarah - and all Christian women/mothers - in the light of the indwelling Holy Spirit, discover God's direction and will in the rearing of children from careful and prayerful study of the contextual, accumulative evidences of the canon of Scripture, yes?

IOW, this critical, oft neglected, issue which Michelle has boldly and courageously raised from Titus 2, merits no small measure of prayerful consideration ... especially in light of the short shrift it seems to have received in much of the professing Body of Christ in America today.

JustJan said...

It’s not sad if God has called her to this task. Our highest calling is to walk in obedience wherever God calls us.

Neither of us knows emphatically where God has called Sarah. We do know emphatically that God has not given us the task of policing that matter in her life.

My point about fiscal policy is that while no one person can turn around the mess we have made, it is possible for her to do her family good through her service to her country.

There is a line here that is too often crossed in America where children become the center and the raising of them an emblem for our faith. God blesses us through giving children, but you can idolize the gift so much that you diminish the Giver. We are not called to make children our all and all.

Our children are not served by our doting on them, scheduling around them, coddling them. Our marriages are not served by this behavior either.

If you are called to stay home and raise children, I totally support and appreciate the work that you do. I trust that you prayerfully considered that God called you to marry and raise children rather than to focus single-heartedly on ministry as a single woman.

JustJan said...

I trust that all spiritually mature Christians value the necessity of prayerful consideration of God's calling on their lives - men and women, young and old, married and single.

I also trust that God has not asked me to struggle with anyone's calling except mine and, to a limited extent, my daughter's.

I am not being asked to vote Sarah in as elder in my church. For the record, I would vote no.

If I believe she is a mature Christian with accountability to her own local church then her running for office presumes that she has already considered the issue of obedience to God, to her husband and her duty to her family. I am CERTAIN that if Sarah had neglected any of these duties the MSM would have told us clearly that she is unfit for the job.

If you truly believe that a woman's role is fully defined and restricted by Titus 2, let's consider the question of women participating in internet discussions. What is being said here could be construed as an assault on the character of a sister in the Lord. I am fairly certain that Paul was trying to discourage that sort of behavior.

I never never expected someone like her to be able to rise to this level in American politics today. I am particularly surprised that this person happens to be a mom. I don't know if Sarah is God's choice for VP, but I am certain that God is still in control and he doesn't need my help in dealing with what Sarah is doing.

Deb_B said...

"If you truly believe that a woman's role is fully defined and restricted by Titus 2..."

Assuming you are alluding to my earlier post - I said this where in my post?

Jan continued:
"...let's consider the question of women participating in internet discussions. What is being said here could be construed as an assault on the character of a sister in the Lord. I am fairly certain that Paul was trying to discourage that sort of behavior."

Have you read my previous posts regarding Gov Palin in this thread? I'm just curious, given I think - please let me know if I'm misconstruing the comments above - you're alleging I'm making an "assault on the character of a sister in the Lord".

Having said that, I also realize you could be referring to the comments regarding Gov Palin douglas originally posted here - to which I responded earlier - and not specifically to my own initial response to you regarding Michelle's concerns related to Titus 2.

Beyond that, as testy as we women get - a malady to which I am oft initially inclined far too often myself - when a strong wind blows the proverbial sand, allegorically speaking, off our own pet "dead Egyptian", it's not terribly difficult to understand why some of these Biblical issues get short shrift in the collective Body of Christ in America today.

Deb_B said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Michelle said...

Thanks, Deb.

It comes down to His objective and authoritative Word. His leading and calling is always consistent with His written Word. It's easier to cry "character assault" and "judge not" than to come under the authority of scripture.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a home full of precious people who need me in innumerable ways. What a privilege, what an honour, what a high calling, what a joy. True women's lib, I tell ya!

Douglas said...

Vote for Jesus!
8/31/2008 - Sunday
"In a country without a king, do we find it harder to believe in the sovereignty of God, and easier to believe in the will, power and choice of man? To what extent has our democratic spirit of "one man, one vote" contributed to the success of Arminianism throughout the history of this nation? On this edition of the White Horse Inn the hosts take a look at the corrosive effects of democracy on American Christianity."

Is a vote for John MaCain and Sarah Palin a vote for Jesus? Looking from the outside in one would think that is the case the way many are carrying on about her, as if she will be the salvation of the United States of America?

The Republican government hasn't done all that much for the indigenous people of Alaska (or for the rest of the United States of America?) and Sarah Palin as Governor seems to have done even less? Will she do more for the Native people if she gains more power?

What's Palin's Record on Native Issues?
September 2, 2008
By Kevin Abourezk

About the same as most other politicians in American history? Not much?

A pretty young lass, a twenty-something Tlingit/Athabascan woman, a real live Alaskan Native calling herself "Writing Raven" with the blog Alaska Real offers some interesting and insightful comments I think. I don't think "Writing Raven" is a Christian but she does write some informative stuff. Check it out.

"...how does her (Sarah Palin) charismatic faith versus her proven record as City Councilwoman, Mayor and, now, Governor, disqualify her from VEEP consideration?"

That should be obvious to those who can discern. Charismatics have wrought untold havoc in the church and in the world over the years one wonders where it will all end? Her charismatic/pentecostal faith does and WILL taint her decision making, without a doubt. She will think she is on a special mission from God to restore His kingdom on earth even by the power of the sword maybe? That's called DOMIONISM! She has already said that the war in Iraq is a mission from God hasn't she? How does she know that? And what do Muslims think about her saying that? It is the same sort of thing Pat Robertson says. I don't think Sarah Palin will be winning many friends from the Muslim world. Nor from the non-Christian world generally.

"A Look at the Pentecostal/Charismatic Movement Is it Biblical?" Two recent statements by John MacArthur.

Charismatic Chaos (scroll down to free Related Resources, a series of articles)

Dominion Theology or Reconstructionism

I just watched the below clip on TV last night here in Christchurch and things sound really bad in the Middle East and Afghanistan. Is Mr. Fisk right or he is wrong? Sarah Palin gets mentioned in the clip as well. Is she correct? I don't think she is. Iraq is a hell hole, unsafe for any Christian of any nationality and will be so for many many years to come. American citizens will never be able to boldly walk the streets of Iraq as free people. The circle of countries where American citizens can go as tourists for holiday in peace and safety grows smaller by the day. I don't think there is any American victory on the horizon anytime soon. The mess in Iraq is far worse than Vietnam ever was. What about the secret executions that are going on inside the prisons in Iraq? Who is doing something about that? What about all the torture that is still going on? Can Christianity justify that?

Veteran Middle-East reporter arrives in NZ
"Barack Obama versus John McCain, Democrat versus Republican, and now there is Sarah Palin in the mix too - the hard-case Alaskan governor who is running as McCain's VP.

It is a mad old circus and it seems everyone, everywhere, has an opinion about the American presidential election.

The wisdom, in liberal Europe anyway, is that Obama and the Democrats will do a better job of foreign relations than the post-Bush Republicans under McCain.

The man who is arguable the western world's leading Middle-East correspondent, Robert Fisk, has just arrived down under for a series of public engagements.

Robert Fisk has reported from the Middle-East for 32 years, interviewed Osama bin Laden three times, and has just released a selection of his multi-award winning journalism in a book called the Age of the Warrior.

Campbell Live spoke to Robert Fisk on the Middle-East's preference of the presidential candidates.
"

Deb_B said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Deb_B said...

douglas
I seriously doubt any of us here intend to make the critical decision of who will lead the nation November 5th based on posts containing reams of cherry-picked clutter.

To have any hope whatever in your determined mission to sway the mindset of anyone here, you'll have to stick around and make your case in the heat of substantial back and forth dialogue.

Otherwise, you lack the all important qualifier of credibility, Douglas.

In the interest of fairness (something you seem disinclined to), it appears you've overlooked a very revealing and insightful resource link!

Perhaps it became obscured amidst all the foregoing ground noise.

Here we go:
Very Revealing, Informative and Insightful - In His Own Words, a Candidate Condones Murder, with Full Knowledge and Forethought.

Douglas said...

Is Sarah Palin a liar? I just saw this on TV 3 here in Christchurch New Zealand about an hour ago. Is it true? I knew about this last week but thought if I said anything then I'd be accused of digging up dirt on Sarah Palin. The way professing Christians are going on and on and on about her is sad to watch. Watching American politics is often sad to see. It is really sad at times watching politics here as well.

Palin caught lying repeatedly about US$398 million bridge

Wed, 10 Sep 2008 4:58p.m.

Watch the video

The woman the Republicans want as vice-president is basking in her reputation as a show-stopping, straight-shooting speaker.
But critics say actually, Sarah Palin is blatant at bending the truth: and at least one of her favourite lines falls right into that category.

It is one of those claims that gets so much applause: to have rejected federal government money for an infrastructure project destined to be a waste of taxpayer money.

Palin has repeatedely told the public she said "thanks, but no thanks" to funding for the infamous Alaskan 'Bridge to Nowhere'.

But the truth is, Palin never rebuffed Congress. Here are the facts: after a year of supporting the proposed bridge, near Ketchikan, Governor Palin pulled state funds from the project, which killed the bridge for good, but she never said no thanks to the Federal funds promised by Congress - US$233 million dollars, of a total proposed cost of US$398 million.

In fact, Palin is spending those federal tax dollars on other highway projects around Alaska.

As a candidate for Governor, she defended every dollar for roads and bridges the state could wrangle from Washington

"I'm not going to stand in the way of progress," she said.

Now however, Palin is on a Republican ticket promising to reform all earmark spending - all federal grants aimed at specific local projects. And McCain's credibility here is excellent - he is not on record ever landing an earmark.

Governor Palin's record on earmarks is mixed. Compared to the previous Governor, Palin's earmarks are down 44 per cent, but stills totals more than US$450 million dollars over two years.

By repeating the claim she said "no thanks" to the bridge, the implication is that she confronted a spendthrift Congress recklessly wasting money. The record shows she wanted that bridge until the end - and kept the money.

CBS / 3 News


Christians don't tell fibs do they? Maybe just sometimes, eh? We have all told lies at sometime haven't we? But that doesn't make telling lies right does it? Politicians don't tell fibs do they to make themselves look good in the public eye, they do not obscure the truth do they, stretch the truth here and there a bit, they do not suppress the truth do they, they do not twist things to make themselves look like they have done the best thing do they? Especially if one is a politician and calls themselves a Christian?

There must be some reasonable explanation for what Sarah Palin did about killing that bridge to nowhere she once supported and then kept the remaining funds to spend on other projects? That is sure to win her some prestige and votes, eh? People will think she is really great at handling taxpayers money, eh? Why not supply more flush toilets in homes for those Natives that live in poverty up there in Alaska? What about dry and warm homes for them? What about plenty of tucker on their plates for them? If Sarah Palin is truly a compassionate, caring, genuine Christian she would be doing all she can for the destitute, downtrodden Natives of Alaska wouldn't she? That's what she has been doing all her life as a Christian hasn't she? Along with proclaiming the true, full-orbed, biblical Gospel every opportunity she gets?

I do not trust Sarah Palin (I don't trust Barak Obama either) and she needs to come clean about all the errors and false teachings she was involved with in her charismatic/pentecostal background. She needs to repent of all the falsehoods and renounce them. Zondervan is rushing to publish another biography of Sarah Palin, “Sarah Palin: A New Kind of Leader,” and is bound to make a packet from the sales of that book for her and for Rupert Murdoch's coffers won't it? I suppose Rupert Murdock is still making dollars from the sale of The Satanic Bible as well, which his other publishing company, HarperCollins, produces? Rick Warren's "Purpose Driven Life" must make a ton of dough for Mr. Murdoch as well I'd say.

The other biography, "SARAH: How a Hockey Mom Turned the Political Establishment Upside Down" obscures all the pentacostal/charismatic involvement of Sarah Palin doesn't it? Does the new biography do the same?

Christian Book Publisher to Release Palin Tome

Tyndale (see below) are now cashing in on Sarah Palin by distributing her biography "SARAH: How a Hockey Mom Turned the Political Establishment Upside Down, which obscures her pentecostal/charismatic background doesn't it? Why is Sarah Palin's pentecostal/charismatic background and continual involvement with them not out there in the open for all to know about? Is there something she and John MaCain are ashamed of? Some skeletons in the closet? Christians are so gullible. Will the next biography “Sarah Palin: A New Kind of Leader” that Zondervan is going to publish, suppress, obscure, hide her pentecostal/charismatic background as well? Probably. Best to keep people in the dark isn't it? Will this new biography paint her as the next patron saint of America who can do no wrong and butter wouldn't melt in her mouth?

Tyndale Now Distributing Sarah Palin Biography
Chicago-Area Publisher Set to Ship the Softcover Edition of SARAH: How a Hockey Mom Turned the Political Establishment Upside Down on September 10, 2008

"Here we go:
Very Revealing, Informative and Insightful - In His Own Words, a Candidate Condones Murder, with Full Knowledge and Forethought."


Which one is the worse sin, murder or lying? Are there degrees in the seriousness of sins or is sin sin? Are murder and lying both sins punishable by death? What are the wages of sin? What happens to unrepentant liars? What happens to unrepentant murderers?

Melody Green who was married to the late Keith Green has written some good articles about Abortion I read them back in the early '80's after I got out of prison. I agree with her. Abortion is bad news. Lying is bad news. Lying destroys lives too doesn't it?

Revelation 2:18"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

JustJan said...

Douglas, do you know how you can tell when a politician is lying?

Their lips move.

As much as I want to think that Sarah is more transparent than the rest of the pack that have run for office in the last 20 years, she is a politician and a fallen human being.

I am not excusing the lie, spin, shading the truth, etc. They ALL do this as a matter of habit. You can vote for a liar or skip the election entirely.

conservativewarrior said...

Mr. Camp,
I love McCain's choice of Palin! but what do you say to people like Baucham and Doug Phillips who say women should not be in public office, (and shouldn't be able to vote at all) and voting for a woman for vice president is the same as wanting women as pastors and who go so far as to say if you vote for McCain you are sinning?! All they say with Deborah is she was a sign of a curse on Israel. I'm catching alot of slack for this because I say the Bible does not prohibit women from holding public office. What does the Bible really say?

Stan McCullars said...

what do you say to people like Baucham and Doug Phillips who say women should not be in public office, (and shouldn't be able to vote at all) and voting for a woman for vice president is the same as wanting women as pastors and who go so far as to say if you vote for McCain you are sinning?

I would ask if they have applied to Saudi Arabia for citizenship.

Douglas said...

Here are some further interesting posts by Voddie Baucham that should shine more light on things. He does that far better than I ever could.

Tuesday, September 2, 2008

Framing the Abortion Debate
"I believe Christian Conservatives are treading in dangerous waters with the way many are spinning the Palin pregnancy issue. The emphasis on the daughter’s “choice” to have the baby is presented as pragmatic as opposed to principled. The way I see it, the abortion debate is quite simple. There are but two crucial questions to be answered. First, when does life begin? Second on what grounds is it moral to take a life? These are questions the candidates must answer forthrightly if they are to win my vote as a follower of Christ. Let me say at the start that neither candidate (in the two major parties) has won my support on this issue. Nor will either of them receive my vote."
Continued in above link.

Wednesday, September 3, 2008

Waking up the Sheeple
"The past several days have been incredibly revealing. I have received numerous emails, phone calls, and interview requests since my August 30th post on John McCain’s VP pick. I have even earned the infamous “fundamentalist” label from one group (this is the term used to marginalize those who make politically incorrect arguments). So I’m getting it from the left and the right. Though much of the response has been positive, I must admit there has been more backlash from Christian Republicans than I expected. Unfortunately, it has all (and I do mean all) been off the mark. As I feared, many people simply follow like sheep when it comes to the political process. The main thrust of the visceral responses has fallen into three distinct categories. Some have accused me of writing a “hit piece” designed to help Mr. Obama. A second group has criticized my failure to apply the pro-family standard consistently. Finally, there are those who are just plain disappointed that I addressed a political issue."
Continued in above link.

Tuesday, September 9, 2008

What if Palin was a...
"The Sarah Palin controversy continues to rage on among complimentarians (there’s virtually no debate among mainstream evangelicals). There are articles flying everywhere on one side of the issue or the other. I find it quite fascinating and stimulating. However, I must say I also find it a bit disappointing. I’m beginning to feel like a man who broke wind in an elevator. It seems EVERYBODY in the Evangelical world feels the need to defend the Palin pick and rally the troops behind Senator McCain (my apologies to those who were offended by my use of Mr. and Mrs. when referring to the Senator and the Governor... I meant no disrespect). The only problem is the reasoning behind the support."
Continued in above link.

Wednesday, September 10, 2008

A Spoonful of Sugar
"I found this on the web and couldn’t help but cringe. Many on the left are using this statement to demonstrate the confusing nature of Evangelical support for McCain simply because of his VP pick. I’ve highlighted a few comments that leapt off the page when I read them in light of recent events.
Statement from Dr. James Dobson as delivered by Laura Ingraham on “The Laura Ingraham Show” (2/5/08):
"
Continued in above link.

Terry Rayburn said...

Douglas,

Would you look back at my previous post in this thread and, in light of it answer this simple question:

Do you think Americans should vote for Obama/Biden over McCain/Palin?

I think you're missing the point that we have a CHOICE to make, not just an academic discussion to have on our sofas, with a brandy and a cigar.

All your analysis of Palin, much of which is slanted by Left-wing media, is sorta beside the point...

...unless...you think Obama would be the better choice.

If so, just say so, and defend it.

But those of us who couldn't vote for any pro-Abortion Socialistic guy, realize that if Obama were elected we would likely be at least another 30 to 50 years with a Liberal, pro-abortion, anti-Constitution Supreme Court.

That would be such a perversion of justice and constitutional republicanism (small "r") that we could very well not recover, humanly speaking.

Sarah Palin is not the Messiah, any more than Obama is, but she sure is a breath of fresh air to those of us who favor both economic freedom and freedom from oppression for the born, the unborn, and the born again.

Again, where do YOU stand, Douglas? What are YOUR thoughts?You seem to be just quoting other pundits and commentators, and in doing so, border on bearing false witness against a sister in Christ.

Blessings,
Terry

5ptsalt said...

conservativewarrior said...
Mr. Camp,
I love McCain's choice of Palin! but what do you say to people like Baucham and Doug Phillips who say women should not be in public office, (and shouldn't be able to vote at all)


Think about it. When women were given the right to vote, it split the family. Or, at the very least, opened the door for the splitting of the family. The husband, the head (yes I know, you guys hate that word) directs the spiritual well-being of the family...or should.

However, when a woman is allowed to vote, the opportunity to split the biblical thinking of the family is ripe!!!

Stan McCullars said...

5ptsalt,
Giving women the right to vote caused the breakup of the family?

It seems you are confused. You have your amendments confused. That's understandable since they occurred so close together.

It was not giving women the right to vote that caused the problems. It was prohibition. The impact of legalism on the family was brutal. The government should have never interfered with the family enjoying the fruit of the vine.

conservativewarrior said...

5ptsalt,
I'm not sure you're on the right track when you say giving women the right to vote split (or has the potential to split) the family. At most all it would do is reveal problems that already exists.

I think you're looking at it backwards. I agree that the husband is the head of the family and leads his wife. If the family is not already split, and his wife is on his side, what difference does her voting make?

On the other hand, the only time her vote makes a difference is when she does not agree with her husband, in which case, the problem goes deeper than voting. So I still don't get why there is a problem with women voting--it doesn't cause problems, it only brings a disagreement out in public.

Tom said...

SARAH PALIN'S STATEMENT of FAITH


The Bible is our Lord’s infallible Holy Word
Of supreme authority in one God’s law.
Eternally existing in three persons of faith
The Father, the Son and the Spirit without flaw.

Jesus was conceived by the virgin named Mary
To soldier divine majesty, grace and reward.
He died and rose to be at the right hand of God
As our negotiator and passage to the Lord.

All men are lost and face God’s judgment
Along with their need to heed to the glory of His Son.
Who suffered the cross to save man’s soul
And to put the angles of darkness on the run.

Christ rose from the dead and is coming soon
And we must have concern for the hurts and needs of all.
Dedicating our lives to the service of our Lord
Whose authority and divine rule becomes our call.

We must use every means to spread the promise of grace
Throughout our world of corruption, greed and crime.
God always expects us to overcome our transgressions
Testing our faith and resolve through the passage of time.

By Sarah's friend
Tom Zart