HT: James White
Isaiah 46:6-7
and he makes it into a god; They bow down, indeed they worship it.
"They lift it upon the shoulder and carry it; They set it in its place and it stands there.
It does not move from its place. Though one may cry to it, it cannot answer;
It cannot deliver him from his distress.
Isaiah 41:7
So the craftsman encourages the smelter,
And he who smooths metal with the hammer encourages him who beats the anvil,
Saying of the soldering, "It is good";
And he fastens it with nails, So that it will not totter.
18 comments:
We watched this at James' site yesterday, and the thing that struck me was the ongoing wailing in the background when the idol fell. I suppose the first wave of that was just shock & surprise that it did fall, but then it continued - almost like the same kind of wailing you hear at some funerals.
Quite eery.
Carla
I agree. It wasn't that they were just surprised that it toppled and made a loud noise, but that something holy that was central to the their faith was now destroyed.
I was in Mexico a few years back with James White and others, and we visited the Our Lady of Guadalupe Catholic Church where the entire sanctuary was a veneration and worship of Mary. They did have one side room for Jesus though, where a figure to depict him was placed in a casket.
This is not Christianity folks... It is another gospel and another religion altogether.
Campi
S.J.
The amazing thing to me is that those that I know to be mature Christians, that are adept at handling the word of God, have great difficulty recognizing that this is idol worship and another gospel!
Now the Philistines took the ark of God and brought it from Ebenezer to Ashdod. Then the Philistines took the ark of God and brought it to the house of Dagon and set it by Dagon. When the Ashdodites arose early the next morning, behold, Dagon had fallen on his face to the ground before the ark of the LORD. So they took Dagon and set him on his place again. But when they arose early the next morning, behold, Dagon had fallen on his face to the ground before the ark of the LORD. And the head of Dagon and both the palms of his hands were cut off on the threshold; only the trunk of Dagon was left to him (1 Samuel 5:1-4).
the spokesman
Bingo! Excellent biblical illustration. Thank you my friend.
Campius
so this was the mighty hand of 'God Almighty bringing judgement on them' perhaps in a miraculous demonstration of the Supernatural power of God? that's hilarious!.
let me tell you what I saw.
"AND BEHOLD, HERE COMETH AN OLD MAN, THAT LOST HIS BALANCE, AN ACCIDENTLY DROP WHAT HE CARRIETH."
I would venture to say, the only miracle that happen in that place, was when the real presence of Christ came down into the form of the Eucharist.
Hammer smashing? please.
I'll venture to bet that nobody here who thought that was a good thing would be equally joyful at the desecration of a copy of the Bible, even though it, too, is only a representation in wood of a sacred thing.
When I see a Protestant wipe his feet on a King James, I'll take the accusations of idolatry seriously.
To Joel - I wouldn't wipe my feet on any book. The value of the Bible, whether King James or any other translation, isn't in the book itself, but in the fact that it's the Word of God.
I think you're missing the point of these posts. It's not to poke fun at these folks but to grieve their departure from the truth. It's idol worship, pure and simple. The statue that was dropped has no spiritual significance other than to demonstrate these folks in their spiritually bankrupt position.
The value of the Bible, whether King James or any other translation, isn't in the book itself, but in the fact that it's the Word of God.
And the value of an icon is that it's a picture of a beloved member of the Body of Christ. The statue itself is only wood and paint; the saint is not only real but very much alive. Nobody there was actually worshipping the statue; they were revering the saint whose picture is was. (I couldn't see it very well, but I think it was Mary. Not that that makes a lot of difference.)
The icon and the book are both representations in physical form of a spiritual reality: the Word of God and the Body of Christ. And even representations of something sacred should be treated with respect.
Joel
The Bible is not a icon, it is the Word of God, it is the source of truth, God has associated himself with it in such a way that Jesus is called the Word of God. God has ordained that we know His Word, that We love His Word and if you do not you are no Christian!
Get a clue, your icons of wood, stone, what ever you choose to make them out of, are simply dumb idols! There is no comparison between the word of God and your graven images!! As a matter of fact, those that you portray via your icons and shrines in the Catholic church would tare everyone of them down, that is unless they fell and worshiped those images themselves, like the members of the Catholic church do.
If the truth is offensive to you then so be it. As a Catholic you align yourself with idol worship and the traditions of men, making invalid the Word of God by the things you do. While on one hand I grieve at the image of a room full of people choosing to be fools by worshiping a piece of wood, I at the same time laugh at that image crashing to the floor, it is a dumb idol just as the idol Dagon in 1 Samuel. Let's light it up and have a barbecue!
God has no respect at all for your idol worship and He takes no part in it, the Catholic church is Ichabod. I would prefer to see your shrines and incense altars be blown to pieces and your people turn to the truth of God, there is only one way to him via prayer and that is through Jesus Christ the Word of God. So snuff out your incense and get away from the parade of fools following their icons and shrines, turn to God and worship Him alone and give glory to no other.
"And the value of an icon is that it's a picture of a beloved member of the Body of Christ. The statue itself is only wood and paint; the saint is not only real but very much alive. Nobody there was actually worshipping the statue; they were revering the saint whose picture is was. (I couldn't see it very well, but I think it was Mary. Not that that makes a lot of difference.)
The icon and the book are both representations in physical form of a spiritual reality: the Word of God and the Body of Christ. And even representations of something sacred should be treated with respect."
The problem with this whole thing is that this group of people is venerating a statue. Not just a created being, but a statue of a created being. These "saints" are just like you and me (or like we'll be one day in heaven.) There's no scriptural support to pray to or through them. 1 Timothy 2 says "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
The person represented in this statue isn't sacred - he/she is just a person who lived long ago and died. Whether they were a "saint" or not is for God to determine and is clearly identified in the Lamb's Book of Life, not an edict from some fallible human.
This deals with the idea of honoring a person - a testimonial about one doing good, pointing to someone as an honorable or Godly person - these are appropriate means of honoring. Creating an idol of someone and placing great emphasis on that person and their idol is inappropriately placed honor.
Leviticus 26:1 says: "You shall not make for yourselves idols, nor shall you set up for yourselves an image or a sacred pillar, nor shall you place a figured stone in your land to bow down to it; for I am the LORD your God." From the reaction of some of the parishoners, it seems that this statue is going to this degree.
The bottom line is, this isn't the Word of God, it's a statue of a person who may or may not have been a saint, Catholic labeling notwithstanding. Our honor worship, prayers, and adoration belong to God - no one else.
My experiences with the Catholic are not wide, but they're also not varied. I see consistency in this religion & not necessarily good consistency. What I've witnessed has me concerned...
A lifetime ago, I spent a year at Bible college. One class was the Missionary Ministry of the Church, where a guest speaker was a former Jesuit priest. He invited us to come along on an outreach the next Saturday. We went to a local convent where he tried to share the gospel with a few nuns. The uniform reply was "The church says..." and "tradition says..." never "Thus says the Lord."
More recently, I belonged to a "Christian" distribution list at work, where we'd email each other with prayer requests, current issues, Biblical discussions, etc. I noticed an alarming number of emails asking us to pray to saint so-and-so, or to ask our favorite saint to pray for something. I tried to steer the disucssions toward Biblical truths, but it went further and further this way. The final straw for me was when I found that the "Bible" study they had set up was instead a study into Mariology.
Now, some may argue (incorrectly) that these are legitimate means of worship, but I say that anything that takes our attention from God and tries to replace Him in THE position of honor is blaspheming. Anyone who tries to replace Jesus Christ's position as our one mediator is also blaspheming.
I've tried for years to avoid this discussion, but now I wonder if the Catholic church isn't merely a cult. Am I being too harsh in my assessment?
I just heard on Hannity and Colmes tonight (June 27) that there is a "patron saint of drug smugglers"!
I did a google search and learned that this "patron saint of drug dealers [smugglers]" is also known as Jesus Malverde, the "Narco Saint"!
The article entitled "Jesus Malverde: The 'Narco Saint'", says:
Smugglers bringing drugs across the border from Mexico pray to him to deliver them safely across and carry icons and images of the saint with them.
Oy vey!
Clearly the issue here is not so much who is honored as a saint, but the emphasis on honoring flawed people instead of a holy God! The scriptures are clear throughout - no man is to be honored above God!
Catholics may say that they don't pray TO a saint, but the evidence is clear this isn't the case. In searching for Jesus Malverde, you find numerous references to prayers said TO this titular saint, instead of prayers to God.
Clearly the issue here is not so much who is honored as a saint, but the emphasis on honoring flawed people instead of a holy God! The scriptures are clear throughout - no man is to be honored above God!
Above God? Absolutely right. Is it permissible to honor them above ourselves, for being better Christians?
Catholics may say that they don't pray TO a saint, but the evidence is clear this isn't the case.
Well, what I've seen as an actual Catholic certainly indicates that it is. There's a reason the litanies say "St. So-and-So, pray for us."
In searching for Jesus Malverde, you find numerous references to prayers said TO this titular saint, instead of prayers to God.
In your searches, did you also see that the Church condemns the cult of Malverde?
Joel
The problem is that the Catholic church is not the body of Christ, it is a conglomeration of man made traditions and idolatrous practices, it promotes the worship of Mary and even elevates her above the level of Christ who is God. You are in a false religion that promotes a false gospel and places upon the back of it's congregants legalistic mandates and requirements just to be a member of it. I could go on and on here but the truth is and has always been available to you and you just choose to disregard it because you are comfortable with your ideas of how things ought to be.
That being said I truly hope that God somehow shatters all of the icons, rituals, papacies, all of the false teaching of the Catholic church and the peoples eyes are opened to the truth of who Jesus Christ is!
Joel -
Above God? Absolutely right. Is it permissible to honor them above ourselves, for being better Christians?
I would have to say no. All honor and glory belong to God. Period. On top of that, they're just like us. They're fallen and redeemed, if they were indeed true believers, which often seems in doubt from what I've read about the lives of some.
"Catholics may say that they don't pray TO a saint, but the evidence is clear this isn't the case."
Well, what I've seen as an actual Catholic certainly indicates that it is. There's a reason the litanies say "St. So-and-So, pray for us."
First, I would have to say calling on someone who isn't here for anything is tantamount to prayer. You're asking someone else to pray for you when you can do your own praying - why would you do that? Why hold God at arm's length? When Jesus demonstrated "The Lord's Prayer," as it's come to be known, he did pray to Abraham, David, or Moses & ask them to pray, he prayed directly to the Father, which is what he TOLD us to do.
Further, there's no scriptural support to pray to or through them. 1 Timothy 2 says "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
In searching for Jesus Malverde, you find numerous references to prayers said TO this titular saint, instead of prayers to God.
In your searches, did you also see that the Church condemns the cult of Malverde?
Seems like your assertion here is that, because of the lack of support for Malverde, and your earlier claim that Catholics don't pray TO saints - am I getting this right?
Take a look at this link, which is a web site of and by the Catholic church:
http://www.catholic.org/clife/prayers/prayer.php?s=41
It clearly shows MANY prayers actually TO these so-called saints, such as "A prayer to Saint Therese De Lisieux for Guidance," or "Unfailing Prayer to St. Anthony," which says: "O Holy St. Anthony, gentlest of Saints, your love for God and Charity for His creatures, made you worthy, when on earth, to possess miraculous powers. Encouraged by this thought, I implore you to obtain for me (request)."
What's clear is the Catholic Church not only condones worship of and prayer to saints, but it encourages it. I'll have to do some more research to see if there are specific commands from some Pope or other through history requiring it.
The bottom line here is, and always should be, if you were to die right now, would you go to heaven? 1 John 5:13 says: "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."
There doesn't need to be ANY doubt in your mind - the scriptures are clear!
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