Thursday, April 10, 2008

AMERICAN IDOL "SHOUTS TO THE..." WHO?
...Jesus isn't just all right with A.I.

UPDATE:
In case you missed it last night on Idol, the contestants sang "Shout To The Lord" again; this time the name of Jesus was left in! Great to see our Lord proclaimed through that song in that venue - regardless of the motives of some (Phil. 1:15-18). Amen?


If you haven't seen this yet, watch it and tell me what you think? (BTW, heads up - at the end of the song, Ben Stiller comes on and in an attempt to be comical says some expletives that are bleeped out though you can pretty much tell what he said.  For Mars Hill Church members, this will seem like Sunday morning worship; for everyone else, it will seem like Saturday night at the bowling alley.)

American Idol did their 2nd Annual Give Back program last night to help primarily children impacted by the plight of world hunger, Katrina, AIDS, etc. It was a powerful humanitarian event hoping to top the 76 million they raised last year that could provide clean water, food, medical attention and education to thousands of families around the globe.  Good on them...

However this year they ended with a bit of a surprise; they closed the show by singing "Shout to the Lord."  BUT, with one small yet significant change in the lyric. It was only one word; an important word; a critical word for that song to have real meaning.  Any guesses on what word they changed?  You got it: they eliminated the name of Jesus. The original lyric says, "My Jesus, my Savior, Lord there is none like You." Idol changed it to, "My Shepherd, my Savior, Lord there is none like You." Now some might say, "Jesus is our Shepherd isn't He Steve, (John 10; Psalm 23) so what is the big problem?"

Here is the problem: 
Take away the name of Jesus from the centrality of this song and "Lord" could mean anyone or anything... (remember George Harrison's "My Sweet Lord"?)  Now I don't fault Idol (they are for the most part nonbelievers), but I do hold them responsible. In all fairness, did the artists have much of a say in this decision?  Probably none at all.  I am fairly confident this was either a network thing or an Idol producer thing.  But still, when taking a great, classic song like this--the lyric stand and be sung "as is."  It goes to free speech, it goes to writer integrity and original intent, and it goes to consistency with other Idol considerations they have made in the past to allow some other gospel songs mentioning the name of Jesus to stand.

We can rejoice that this song continues to make an impact on this generation.  But the impact was minimized when the lyric was changed.  No small deletion.  How wonderful it would have been to let the A. Idol world know that it is Jesus who the song calls the only true Savior and Lord...  Amen?

Here is a biblical count below of why this is so important for Christians today to not cower in the mentioning of our Lord Jesus Christ in the marketplace and to keep His name prominent.

Peter and John Before the Council
Acts 4:1 And as they were speaking to the people, the priests and the captain of the temple and the Sadducees came upon them, 2 greatly annoyed because they were teaching the people and proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection from the dead. 3 And they arrested them and put them in custody until the next day, for it was already evening. 4 But many of those who had heard the word believed, and the number of the men came to about five thousand.

5 On the next day their rulers and elders and scribes gathered together in Jerusalem, 6 with Annas the high priest and Caiaphas and John and Alexander, and all who were of the high-priestly family. 7 And when they had set them in the midst, they inquired, “By what power or by what name did you do this?” 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders, 9 if we are being examined today concerning a good deed done to a crippled man, by what means this man has been healed, 10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by him this man is standing before you well. 11 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (emphasis mine)

13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated, common men, they were astonished. And they recognized that they had been with Jesus. 14 But seeing the man who was healed standing beside them, they had nothing to say in opposition. 15 But when they had commanded them to leave the council, they conferred with one another, 16 saying, “What shall we do with these men? For that a notable sign has been performed through them is evident to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it. 17 But in order that it may spread no further among the people, let us warn them to speak no more to anyone in this name.” 18 So they called them and charged them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19 But Peter and John answered them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, you must judge, 20 for we cannot but speak of what we have seen and heard.” 21 And when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding no way to punish them, because of the people, for all were praising God for what had happened. 22 For the man on whom this sign of healing was performed was more than forty years old." (emphasis mine)

91 comments:

Alice said...

I recently heard a fantastic sermon by James Macdonald on this topic/this portion of Scripture called "The Church of Jesus Christ: An Unstoppable Force." So true. It's OK to be "religious," you just can't be about the Name.

Thanks for this...

Eric said...

It's amazing how the name of Jesus Christ makes non-Christians bristle. I pray for more boldness because in the past I was one to mention THE LORD, but realize I should refer to HIM as Jesus.

This is a good illustration how changing that one word just makes the song less offensive and more palatable to the world.

I'm fairly new at responding here so if I'm off base on anything feel free to correct me. I'm also looking for community and am currently in the process of trying to find a church where I'm at and so any contact with other Christians is very desireable.

SJ Camp said...

Thanks for the link Alice.
I will look forward to hearing James on this subject.

Steve
Col. 1:18

SJ Camp said...

Eric
Welcome to COT.

Great thought brother and thank you. May you be "off base" in the future as well :-).

Where do you live? Maybe myself or others could recommend a church in your area to you?

Grace,
Steve

Eric said...

Thanks for the welcome. I'm in Oakbrook Terrace, IL - in the Wheaton / Lombard / Elmhurst area (a western Chicago suburb). Most recently I've checked out Wheaton Bible Church - but they are in the process of moving.

SJ Camp said...

Eric
I responded too quickly without first looking at your bio info you posted at Google.

You are from my old stomping grounds. I was born in Elmhurst and grew up in Wheaton. Small world.

Have you tried The College Church where Kent Hughes used to be senior pastor (it is across the street from Wheaton College). Irwin Lutzer at Moody Bible downtown Chicago is also quite good. James MacDonald in north of the city. His church is called Harvest.

Hope this helps a bit more...
Steve

Alice said...

I actually forgot to leave a link when I first posted; here it is: http://store.walkintheword.com/p-687-an-unstoppable-force-for-god.aspx

Eric, I grew up in Wheaton and attended College Church as an adult--it is a wonderful church. Harvest Bible Chapel is in both Rolling Meadows (near Woodfield Mall) and in Elgin (off Randall Road). Two very different churches, but both excellent Bible-preaching places.

Pastor Mark said...

Amen Steve, it continually causes me to be astonished at the number of Christians who are content to hear a faint reference to Jesus even if this means His name is removed. This is a more serious problem than we think. If we are ashamed of Him and His name He will be ashamed of us! To be a Christian is to be Christlike, therefore we must exalt His holy name the only name under heaven and earth that men may be saved.

The Seeking Disciple said...

Thanks Steve for this post. While I have not watched the American Idol show before, I think this shows how far Americans have moved away from God. How we need a revival in the Church to impact our culture with the gospel. My prayer is that Christians will see how vital it is that we live our faith and that we share our faith in truth.

littlegal_66 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ann'Re @ Home said...

*sigh*

I was flipping through the stations last night and happened to catch the tail end of that show. At first I thought it was kinda cool that they were singing that. When they started singing that though, I thought that it didn't sound right. It bothered me and I wasn't sure why. Now I know. Thanks for posting this, Steve. Your blog has been a real blessing to me. :D

Fusion! said...

Point well taken, my question would be if Hillsong gave permission for this version to be played. My othe comment is, why the needless elbow jab to Mark Driscoll? Seriously, what do you want from the man? He's making changes (slowly perhps) but changes they are. And, he's pretty ortohodox in his teaching. I know you may not like his style (and many don't) but he's standing up for the NAME of Jesus.

SJ Camp said...

Good comments to all
I wonder how much they raised last night? I hope it all goes to the kids and their families.

fusion!
Just making a little joke brother that's all. And if you notice, I didn't have to swear, I wasn't vulgar, didn't use scatological speech or the name of the Lord as a punch-line, I didn't twist Scripture to do it, or quote Chris Rock.

I bet ya Mark even laughed. In fact, I'm sure he did.

littlegal_66 said...

I have to admit that this got past me last night as I was watching the show. (I think I was in such shock to hear the song that it took me up to the chorus to recover). It really caught me off guard, so I missed the “My Shepherd” part.

I‘m going to go out on a limb here and speculate that if “My Sweet Lord” had been chosen as a song on one of the Beatles weeks, the American Idol contestant would have been allowed (possibly even encouraged) to sing the “Krishna, Krishna,” "Hare Hare," ad libs that George Harrison originally added to his song. (When David Archuleta sang "Imagine," a couple of weeks ago, Randy Jackson quizzed him on why he didn't sing the "Imagine there's no heaven/no hell below us/and no religion too" stanza).

Why do you guys think "Shout to the Lord" was chosen.....especially if they were going to omit the name of Jesus from it? I'm a regular viewer of the show, and am curious as to what other viewers think the producers' motives possibly could have been. (I'm just too inquisitive, I guess).

SJ Camp said...

if “My Sweet Lord” had been chosen as a song on one of the Beatles weeks, the American Idol contestant would have been allowed (possibly even encouraged) to sing the “Krishna, Krishna,” "Hare Hare," ad libs that George Harrison originally added to his song.

Bingo.

Don't know why they chose the song. Maybe some of the singers suggested it; Jesus caring for the poor; shout to the Lord - look at all the humanitarian good we are doing... Maybe, don't know.

But I think you are right in your analysis.

littlegal_66 said...

"It goes to free speech, it goes to writer integrity and original intent, and it goes to consistency with other Idol considerations they have made in the past to allow some other gospel songs mentioning the name of Jesus to stand."

Exactly. That's what makes this thing puzzling to me.

(Picture a humanitarian effort of such magnitude, perhaps to benefit those suffering with AIDS, then someone ending with "Don't Tell Them Shepherd Loves Them." Very strange on the part of Idol's powers-that-be).

Carla said...

Well fancy seeing this topic here today. I watched last night and was SO impressed to hear the song at the end of the show, that I had every intention of blogging about it myself today (just hadn't got to it yet). I never even noticed how they replaced Jesus with Shepherd last night, and I suppose that's because I was so stunned that they were singing it in the first place.

I sat on my couch and sang right along with them (I love this song, and we sing it in my church), and simply praised the Lord. They sounded great!

The thing is, I'd be willing to guess the majority of the people singing that on stage last night are not even believers - however - that song was written to praise our Lord, so whether believers or unbelievers were singing it, our Lord DID receive the glory in that. On national television with millions of viewers. I thought that was exceptionally cool.

I wondered how many other Christians watched and sang along like I did, and how many of them were so impressed to hear that? I never noticed the wording change, but tonight they did a repeat performance and they did NOT change the wording:

MY JESUS, MY SAVIOR!

Color me impressed that they repeated the performance, and exalted our Lord's name.

gigantor1231 said...

S.J. And All

Hmmmm this is especially for those folks on idle and anyone else who thinks that we need to be ecumenical and lock arms with all world religions to solve the worlds problems and usher in the new peace.

His name is called Jesus because He comes to deliver His people from their sins. His name is Jesus and He is the word of God, He and the Father are one and there is nothing that was not created through Him. His name is Jesus and He is The Way, The Truth and the Life, no man comes to the Father but by Him and just so you know this is not a metaphor, it is the pure truth! His name, Jesus, is the only name under heaven by which men must be saved. The reality is, at the end of life, at the end of all time, it does not matter what name men choose to, or do not choose to call Him because at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. For a few chosen that day will be a great day of celebration and rejoicing, it will be another Lord's day for us, but for those who choose to deny His name and serve other God's it will be the great and terrible day of the Lord for them, it is appointed unto them to die and then the judgment, where they will be tried according to their works against the plumb of, who else, the Stone that the builders rejected, the one who is the light, the one that the world hates and whose name they use only in vain! His name is Jesus, His name is Jesus, His name is Jesus and He is wonderful!
Even while you turn from Him in shame and deny His name, even while you declare war against Him and deny Him His rightful place of Lord in you Life, He still holds out His hands to you with the olive branch of Peace, He still beckons you to come and spend eternal life with Him, He is the lamb of mercy to You. He does not desire that you would perish but that you would have life with Him, but you need to grope and cry out for mercy and pray that He reveals His graciousness to you, He poured out His life for you and He did it once and for all, He said it is finished and He opened the way for you to enter in to fellowship with Him.
So come and let us reason together! Turn to Him while you still can, before it is to late and you are cast into outter darkness with all of the unbelievers. Remember your time is any time and it is simply God's grace that holds you back from spiraling into hell even now. So do not hesitate any longer and call on His Name, the Name of Jesus!!!

Ellen said...

Just making a little joke brother that's all. And if you notice, I didn't have to swear, I wasn't vulgar, didn't use scatological speech or the name of the Lord as a punch-line, I didn't twist Scripture to do it, or quote Chris Rock.

No...you merely had to slander a brother.

Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death is the man who deceives his neighbor
and says, "I am only joking!"


Steve, if the crude speech is no longer happening, at what point will YOU stop keeping a record of wrong?

You respond to a reproof about the needless jab with yet another jab.

I used to read this blog on a regular basis...not so much any more. This is why.

I have been to Mars Hill Church and what you are doing here by taking swings that their service is - quite simply - bearing false witness. You might want to take note of the growing humility that is present in Driscoll's speech. That would be a good lesson.

False witness and slander for the sake of a "little joke" is covered in Scripture.

Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death is the man who deceives his neighbor
and says, "I am only joking!"

SJ Camp said...

ellen
Thanks for your comment here. A few brief thoughts for you:

1. Stay on topic.

2. Steve, if the crude speech is no longer happening, at what point will YOU stop keeping a record of wrong?

2.a. It is happening Ellen - stronger than ever--but that is for another thread--not for this one.

3. Now, do you have something to say or contribute about the article or the video itself?

Peace,
Steve
Col. 1:9-14

SJ Camp said...

Carla:
I saw that tonight too; and SDG that the name of our Lord Jesus was clearly presented and the integrity of the song preserved. Someone from Hillsong Publishing must have made a phone call to Idol :-).

Littlegal
Exactly.

Ellen said...

Steve, I was thinking that if it was in your original post, then it was on topic. My mistake.

On the video...part of the problem with moralism is that we expect the world to act as if it has the Light when they do not.

We want those in the darkness to behave as if they are in the Light in the matter of divorce, abortion, dressing like the next blond-bombshell, gay marriage and other life-styles. We want to legislate morality in cloning, IVF and we decry the state of our world.

When some in the church (and I don't like this) co-opt secular music for spiritual use, I don't find it surprising that the those in the dark would co-opt spiritual music for secular use.

Is it a good thing? No.
Is it surprising? No.

Bronni said...

Well said, Steve! I love your blog!
I watch Idol because I'm a musician and of course, love music! I don't watch it because I think it's a Christian show. It's secular so I expect secular. When they started singing the song I thought to myself, "they are going to trump the "we're religious people so give to our cause" card"! I was not fooled by their "religiosity"! They should stick to what they know and are, secular. I would say they should leave Jesus out of it, but, oh, wait, they did!! Idol is no match for the Sovereign of the universe. He wins in the end and will prevail no matter who leaves His name out. They will believe one day!! Thanks for your faithfulness to Truth!!! Jesus is the truth!

littlegal_66 said...

"I never even noticed how they replaced Jesus with Shepherd last night, I suppose that's because I was so stunned that they were singing it in the first place."

See, I'm in good company with you, Carla. And thanks both of you for the tip on tonight's show; I Tivo'd it (because of Little League). (Just got my li'l sluggers tucked in)....I'm going to watch it now. Have a great evening, all.
SDG indeed!

gigantor1231 said...

Ellen

'We want those in the darkness to behave as if they are in the Light in the matter of divorce, abortion, dressing like the next blond-bombshell, gay marriage and other life-styles. We want to legislate morality in cloning, IVF and we decry the state of our world.'

Why does God command and expect all men to repent? Is the world accountable for what God has spoken as law? If He holds the world accountable then why shouldn't we proclaim His laws, His truths to them?
The assertion that you and many others have made is antithetical to what the Word of God says. The world will be held accountable and they are expected to obey, we should expect nothing less than what God expects and administer His truth with grace and compassion, baring with those that are ignorant, proclaiming the Gospel to them with all long suffering. We should always expect God's laws, His commands, be obeyed by ALL MEN! It is no surprise that those that are separated from God do not repent and obey but that does not mean we do not expect.

PS I do not know if you have noticed or not but the only thing that is legislated is morality! Laws are in place to protect society from vices that would otherwise cause it's collapse. No worries here though, because we as a nation are failing in the area of being able to discern what is right and wrong, "MORALITY," our nation is not far from collapse, we are well down the road of Gommorah!

Ellen said...

Why does God command and expect all men to repent? Is the world accountable for what God has spoken as law? If He holds the world accountable then why shouldn't we proclaim His laws, His truths to them?

The assertion that you and many others have made is antithetical to what the Word of God says.


You believe that I have stated that which I have not stated.

Will the world be held accountable? I have not said that the world will NOT be held accountable.

I merely assert that without faith, it is impossible for unbelievers to obey the Law. If it were, there would be no need for a Saviour.

I believe that "this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed."

I believe that "to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled."

I believe that "the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot."

What you call "antithetical to what the Word of God says", I call "total depravity of man".

I am merely not surprised when the unregenerate behave in a way that the unregenerate behave.

Ellen said...

PS I do not know if you have noticed or not but the only thing that is legislated is morality! Laws are in place to protect society from vices that would otherwise cause it's collapse.

PS.

Abortion on demand is legislated

No-fault divorce is legislated

The United States is not the only country in the world. Do you know how many countries have enacted legislation that allows gay marriage?

Is this legislated morality?

gigantor1231 said...

Ellen

Unregenerate, depraved, In need of the savior, every bit is true. We should preach the truth and expect that it be obeyed, "JUST AS GOD DOES," equally true. We preach the Gospel with all long suffering, we sow, we water and He brings the increase.
While we are not surprised that the unregenerate do not repent, we should be shocked at there depravity, we should be saddened and burdened because the very souls of men are rushing headlong into hell. With that in mind, please answer this one question that I asked before. Does God expect those that He commands to repent, to repent? Did Jesus expect those that He told to 'go and sin no more,' actually go and sin no more?
I am not a name it and claim it guy, nor am I a 'Norman Vincent Peale power of positive thinking' disciple, but if we would actually expect people to go and sin no more, actually obey, when we preach the Gospel to them, perhaps some of them would!

gigantor1231 said...

Ellen

Obviously not all laws are good and not all those that legislate hold to God's law, but that does not mean we should not be involved with the legislation of morals = laws! We should be their to legislate God's laws. Theocracy, living under the one true God is the only answer to the Sin that caused and is the root of all the worlds problems. Christ is the only answer to those problems.

Ellen said...

we should be shocked at there depravity, we should be saddened and burdened because the very souls of men are rushing headlong into hell.

Do not assume that I am not, merely because I am Reformed.

With that in mind, please answer this one question that I asked before. Does God expect those that He commands to repent, to repent?


Christ outright told Jews that "you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

Jesus apparently did not expect that those who were not part of His flock to believe.

Did Jesus expect those that He told to 'go and sin no more,' actually go and sin no more?

In the same spirit, did God expect that everybody who heard the Commandments in the Old Testament would obey them? If God expected that nobody would commit adultery, why did He institute the death penalty for it?

I believe that we are not saved because we obey, we obey because we are saved.

but if we would actually expect people to go and sin no more, actually obey, when we preach the Gospel to them, perhaps some of them would!

Some do. That is the Great Commission.

I believe that many are called but few are chosen.

I am not a universalist and I believe that those who are chosen will absolutely believe and be saved. I do not believe that all will be saved and I do not believe that all will obey.

To believe that all will be saved and that all will obey is contrary to Scripture.

Ellen said...

My point was (and still is) that we cannot expect people who do not have the Light to act as if they do.

I think it might have been John MacArthur who said something to the effect of "the ungodly will always live up to their job description".

Mark Driscoll said (and this also is not an exact quote) "the only bad thing about the term "total depravity" is that it doesn't go far enough."

We should not be surprised when the ungodly act in an ungodly way.

Saddened, yes (so please to not attempt to portray my perception of reality as a hardened heart concerning reaching the lost).

Surprised? No. Those who look within themselves and see where they would be without Christ understand that it is only the work of the Spirit that allows them to believe.

Those who understand the "T" are not surprised.

gigantor1231 said...

Ellen

There is no surprise in the fact that the sinner sins, but there is great absurdity and non sense in the words

'Jesus apparently did not expect that those who were not part of His flock to believe.'

Imperative "COMMANDS" expectation! You are correct however in using the word apparent in your prior statement because that is all that one can discern is something that is apparent. Christ clearly spoke and preached that all men should repent and turn to Him, His words also fell on deaf ears and blind eyes and that is where the 'apparent' contradiction exists. This is a antimony, a place where divine tension exists for a greater truth, and that is that God has provided equally for all men a way to salvation and none of those that refuse to repent are held guiltless because God has instilled in every man a conscience that clearly sees and understands the most basic truth about God that is displayed in nature;

John 15: 22

22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have been guilty of sin,3 but now they have no excuse for their sin.

Roman's 1: 20

20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Even apart from hearing His spoken word they are without the excuse because even nature proclaims that there is a God, one much greater than man, that will judge all with perfect justice. Each man that does not repent will stand before God on his own and each man will be judged by God's law, God has caused no man to sin, neither by divine fiat or disassociation;

James 1: 13-15

"13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death."

Bottom line here is that with every imperative imparted to mankind there is a expectation to obey, imperative does not exist without expectation otherwise it is just mere advice and sanctions do not apply.
God did not create sin, nor is sin a part of Him. He created the components that by themselves lie dormant and harmless! Man being tempted by Satan puts together the components of enticement and desire, when desire conceives comes sin and death. Man is held accountable and without excuse!

Brian @ voiceofthesheep said...

We didn't see the original 'Oprah' version...Pam and I saw the show last night and watched them sing it with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ left in the lyrics.

Regardless of whether or not any of those on stage last night were believers, we must rejoice...

What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice. - Phil. 1:18

SJ Camp said...

Ellen
Some great thoughts here--thank you!

I agree with this: Those who look within themselves and see where they would be without Christ understand that it is only the work of the Spirit that allows them to believe.

Those who understand the "T" are not surprised.


The hardest letter of the TULIP to understand is the "T." Being reformed too we share that similar worldview.

For all: I didn't mean to communicate in this article that we should be shocked that Idol didn't allow the name of Jesus to be sung on their show. I understand why they changed it. I was simply saying that in past shows (even the one recently with Dolly) they have allowed songs about the Lord to be freely sung.

Thanks for contributing here Ellen... Good to have your dialogue voiced here.

Steve

SJ Camp said...

Brian
I just posted an update and echoed your comment here. "Great minds...."

Phil. 1:18 indeed!
Campi

Hayden said...

Steve,

I watch the show weekly and to be fair there have been some songs that had some 'spiritual content' in them. (I think during the country week there were some references to "Jesus" in songs. In another week one of the contestants sang a song that had some references as well)

American Idol in no way is Christian. Some of the artists are and some of them have chosen Christian songs to sing. As a matter of fact, one Christian artist Mandissa is from a previous year of "Idol". There may be Christians that sing on the show (some former worship leaders have also sung on the show)BUT no one should confuse religiosity (from the producers) with Christianity. Though some artists are Christian this is a thoroughly secular show. Which is why I almost fell out of my chair when they sang this song! This was the first time that they as a group have ever sang anything remotely Christian! (I only saw the Thursday performance)

I feel like Brian does on this one. Even my unsaved mother who happened to be watching it with us said that it was a great song and she couldn't believe they sang a Christian song together.

SJ Camp said...

Hayden
I agree - my point exactly.

I don't fault Idol producers for editing the song to suit their agenda. But they still should honor authorial intent and integrity.

By the same token, it drives me crazy when I hear Christian artists take secular songs and try and make them about Jesus. Bridge Over Troubled Waters; Free Ride; Love Lifted Us Up Where We Belong; Spirit In The Sky; Love Is The Answer; etc. Can't stand it. That is just CCM's version of Sister Act :-).

As to Idol using STTL, this was an inspirational song segment about giving to the poor, helping others in need, and it doesn't completely surprise me to see this show take a popular gospel song and make it their "We Are The World" closer considering the shows theme for Wednesday night. God, family, country, charity, etc.

And yes, they have had many artists sing songs about the Lord throughout its years. Even the Grammy's did a gospel segment for years featuring Black Gospel artists. It was their inspirational moment as well (though they don't do it anymore). Means nothing.

I also believe that Phil. 1:18 applies here clearly now that the name of the Lord has been correctly reinstated in the song. Otherwise, if you do take out the name of Jesus from the opening lyric, it changes dramatically the complexion of the entire song. Savior and Lord could mean anything or anyone at that point.

I know many Christians get all fuzzy and sentimental over hearing songs like that sung on shows like Idol thinking evangelism has just occurred.

But let's keep it in perspective. Last night when the lyric was changed back was a purely political move on Idol's part. Someone got to the producers and "ministered" to them. Whether it was some of the artists, emails from fans, the publisher of the song, the legal department at FOX - all of the above... whomever.

I am very glad though, despite their motives or reasoning, that the original lyric was honored and sung to make the correction.

Phil. 1:18 now applies and we can rejoice in that...

Campi

gigantor1231 said...

S.J. and All

If you have not figured it out, I am a intense individual, obviously it comes across in my blogging! When I saw and heard this song on Idol, I initially thought that it was great, and I agree whole heartedly with the passage BVOF posted;

What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice. - Phil. 1:18

On the flip side of things, and what is most stark to me, is the commercialization as well as the self promoting hype that goes along with Idol, it is like 'let's put some ointment on the fly' instead of the fly landing in the ointment! I know many Christians that have been sucked into the post modern emergent seeker sensitive ecumenical movement by subtle events just like this. They become enamored with the philanthropy that takes place and then they become willing to sacrifice the truth for what they now see as a higher cause, instead of putting Christ first and serving from that position, their service comes first and the truth is slowly eroded away. Maybe I am making much ado about nothing here, but this all just seems so Warrenesque, I was wondering when Oprah and Eckhart Tolle were going to join the singers on stage, of course what we got at the end was a foul mouth Ben Stiller and that is what really portrays the attitude of the liberal producers of the show. As I said, perhaps what I have said here is much ado about nothing but it just seems to me that the dividing line between those of the world is getting clearer to those who draw close to Him, on the other side, things like this really make things fuzzy, especially for those younger or weaker Christians, let alone a un regenerate world.

S.J. and Ellen

Calvin's T for the total depravity is right on, it does not, however, mean that there is not a valid and sovereign expectation of repentance of sins and a turning to righteousness for those that are Totally depraved.

Ellen said...

Calvin's T for the total depravity is right on, it does not, however, mean that there is not a valid and sovereign expectation of repentance of sins and a turning to righteousness for those that are Totally depraved.

Are you saying that God is truly and validly waiting in expectation for the entire human population to repent? In such a way that He (in His omnipotence) will be surprised when they do not?

There is a line between a real (and active) call to repentance and an "expectation" that all will repent (sounds like open theism, where God cannot know ahead of time what will happen).

Coming back to "Idol", I'm sure that God is also not surprised that the unregenerate would use "Christian" music to get a better rating.

Hayden said...

Steve,

Agreed 100% on this topic. I bet you thought you would never hear me say that :)

Some of the students I minister to wanted to sing those songs that are secular changed to "Christian" I emphatically said no for many of the reasons you have stated.

Hope all went well on the Mike Corely show. I missed it but will look for it on replay :)

Hayden

Alice said...

gigantor, you said: "They become enamored with the philanthropy that takes place and then they become willing to sacrifice the truth for what they now see as a higher cause, instead of putting Christ first and serving from that position, their service comes first and the truth is slowly eroded away. Maybe I am making much ado about nothing here..."

I don't think you're making much ado about nothing at all. I see the point you make as one of the major ills of the church today. Our church and our family have a personal policy: we don't support any mission organization or missionary unless their #1 upfront priority is the gospel of Jesus Christ. Medical missions, to give an example, are wonderful--but not if healing the body is their main priority.

To quote James Macdonald (again!): "Jesus Christ doesn't share the platform with anyone."

gigantor1231 said...

Ellen

"Are you saying that God is truly and validly waiting in expectation for the entire human population to repent? In such a way that He (in His omnipotence) will be surprised when they do not?"

I am saying that He knows and is expectant and He is justified, reasonable and perfectly righteous in His expectation! He will not be surprised but He will be angry, because He will have offered every man peace with Him through Christ. The passages that I posted before, and there are more like them, prove his expectation in that those that are unsaved are without excuse, otherwise the excuse would be 'it is his will that they perish' and we know that God desires no man would perish.

gigantor1231 said...

Alice

Good policy! There are many missionaries that sincerely make Christ first and offer the only answer to the world, even when the blankets, food and medicine run out, there ultimate goal is that all men know the true healer, peacemaker and Lord Jesus Christ.

Ellen said...

I guess that maybe I'm using the first dictionary definition of "expect" - to look forward to; regard as likely to happen; anticipate the occurrence or the coming of (She expects that they will come.)

I don't believe that God anticipates that all will repent.

Does He demand it? Yes. Is He angry? Yes.

Does he regard repentance by all as likely to happen? No.

If you are using the second dictionary definition, to look for with reason or justification: (We expect obedience) then maybe.

Does God have reasonable justification to look for repentance from the unregenerate?

Do we have reasonable justification to look for sincere worship from - say...Simon?

Steve said...

I'm guessing that the change from "Jesus" to "Shepherd" wasn't so much an aversion to "Jesus," but an aversion to Him being our Lord and Savior. Hollywood is okay with having Jesus as their "homeboy," or even their "spiritual guide," but they don't want to admit they need a Savior, and don't want to trust Him as Lord.

"I Can Only Imagine" was a hit on secular radio, but you won't find the same appreciation for "Just As I Am" or any other song that speaks of our need for redemption.

gigantor1231 said...

Ellen

Does God have reasonable justification to look for repentance from the unregenerate?

Absolutely! Just as Christ was reasonable in His expectation that the fig tree He cursed would have had figs on it when it's leaves were out. Even though Jesus was omniscient in all things and knew what He would find on the fig tree, He went in expectation of finding figs. So is He reasonable in His expectation of men that they all repent and turn to Him, when they do not He will curse them and send them into everlasting darkness.

Do we have reasonable justification to look for sincere worship from - say...Simon?

We are reasonable in that we should expect all men to fear God and Repent, turning to Christ as their Lord and Savior, it is what God commands. We do not know the hearts of men and we do not know who will be saved and who will be lost, so anyone is fair game for the Gospel and all are called to obey the master. Obviously we know that this obedience work is not what saves, but it is the grace of God through faith in Christ Jesus alone!

Michele Rayburn said...

Carla's comment reflected my sentiments exactly.

I probably didn't notice the change in the first two words of the song because, like Carla and Littlegal, I was so surprised that they would even choose that song in the first place, and got caught up in just enjoying their performance of this wonderful song.

Didn't have a chance to think about it, and my "antennae" weren't up because they have always had people sing about Jesus on this show, as others have pointed out. So, it wasn't like I was afraid of how they might have an anti-Christian bias toward that song.

Why they left the name of Jesus out the first time is anybody's guess. Probably some poorly chosen "business decision". But I must say, like Carla, that the Lord was exalted in spite of it. It brought tears to my eyes both times that they sang it.

The first night that they sang "Shout To The Lord", I thought to myself that they simply chose it as a popular inspirational song for their fund-raising program. But I also hoped that somewhere in their hearts, the so-called "powers that be" knew that the Lord needed to be a part of this endeavor.

But the second night they sang it was really special, because it was like they were unashamed, and were sincere. They even chose to sing it the right way, with the name of Jesus. Maybe it was just another business decision, but it was a good one, and it had to have an impact on believer and unbeliever alike.

And Brian@voice of the sheep mentioned the same verse that I was thinking of:

"What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice." - Philippians 1:18

Whether from false motives or true, whether "from selfish ambition, not sincerely" (Philippians 1:15), Christ was proclaimed.

His name was not proclaimed the first night, but HE was. And what a blessing it was when His name was proclaimed on the following evening. "America spoke", and they listened, I suppose.

As Randy Jackson might say, "Yo, dawg! That was blazing molten hot!"

And as Simon Cowell might have said, "I luv'd it!". (That's "I loved it!")

And as Paula Abdul might have said, "First of all, I want to say that you look lovely tonight..."

Well, let's forget what Paula might have said for now on this one...! (Just keepin' it real!)

On a separate "note", in all the years that I have sung during worship at church, so much of the time I insert the name of Jesus into the song while I'm singing, because so many of our worship songs leave His name out and use the word "He" or "Him". It begins with the church, doesn't it? Proclaiming Jesus' name unashamedly begins with us. There really is power in that name.

Tim Glenn said...

Actually, the name of jesus has been sung Several time on Idol over the past few weeks. Check out this blog post, to see what I'm talking about:

http://blog.compassion.com/jesus-on-idol/

littlegal_66 said...
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littlegal_66 said...

You know, in hindsight, it occurred to me that maybe Fox was trying to insert a subliminal plug for their other music reality show: "Don't Forget the Lyrics."
:-)
(Good thing they didn't 'lock in those' Wednesday night lyrics)!

littlegal_66 said...

Ellen:

I appreciate and definitely agree with your point that we cannot expect people who do not have the Light to act as if they do, and I agree that we should not be surprised when the ungodly act in an ungodly way. (Frankly, I was much more surprised by the fact that they actually sang the song than I was that they left Jesus' name out of it). However, it does reflect an inconsistency on Idol's part in that vocalists have sung songs previously on that show and verbalized the name of Jesus (not in a vain light) within those songs.

I don't believe their motive was to get better ratings; on the contrary, one thing that show doesn't have to worry about is good ratings. I'm of the opinion that many of the show's viewers are most likely believers, and if that is the case, Idol is well aware of the presence of that demographic group. Perhaps they hoped to subconsciously tug at the heartstrings of Christians.....appeal to our compassion so that we might dig deeper and donate.....I don’t know. But I don’t believe it was all about attracting more viewers; most people I’ve talked to didn’t know in advance that this song was going to be sung.

I will say that over the past few seasons, I have seen a positive progression within the show and its attitude toward some of the professing Christian contestants and their beliefs/convictions, which is somewhat encouraging. However, as Steve intimated, reprising the song on Thursday with Jesus’ name intact was most likely an exercise in damage control (and possibly legal obligations). Nevertheless, regardless of the reason, the bottom line is that an ensemble of vocalists on the number one prime time show in the nation sang a powerful song of praise in front of at least 20 million television viewers.....and that, brothers and sisters, is cause for celebration.

Douglas said...
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Testing the Spirits said...

Honestly I am not surprised to see "Hollywood" do something like this, Jesus is on t-shirts and coffee mugs; packaged as a commodity. It does know justice or promote to the Cross of Christ, but only to make Him look cool and hip. I watched some of the Idol, but couldn't watch it anymore. I think it is a great thing to raise money for those who need it most. It gets under my skin when I see these stars making millions, holding and parading these children across the TV.

Douglas said...

Were the ratings dropping for American Idol and so there was a decision made to reel in more of the professing Christian market? Maybe, maybe not. I do not believe the song was sung to glorify God. There is no fear and trembling in American Idol. There is no holiness of God in that show.

I really cannot understand why so many are raving on and on about American Idols singing "Shout to the Lord," with or without the name Jesus.

Is the Jesus that all those Idols were singing about really and truly the LORD Jesus Christ of all that is? Were they truly praising and worshiping the LORD?

Hillsong is a money making racket for Brian Houston and his prosperity gospel, word of faith type theology. I cannot stand any of Hillsongs' music. Others may love them, I don't. How many will now go out and buy that CD? More money for Hillsong. Heaps more probably.

Is the Jesus that Hillsong sings about really and truly the LORD Jesus Christ, the King of kings and Lord of lords that the whole universe will bow their knees to? Is the Jesus Brian Houston preaches the true LORD Jesus Christ of the Scriptures?

There have been plenty of Jesus' come and go over the years.

Hillsong Church
founded by Brian and Bobby Houston

UNMASKED... The Houstons
Part One: You Need More Money

by Neil Richardson

"Tonight (9 Jan 2000) on BBC1 they are showing Apollo 13, the Oscar-winning portrait of the 'routine' moon trip that went horribly wrong. It's a gripping piece and contains the memorable line, "Houston, we have a problem." This series of articles seeks to deal with a set of Houstons- Frank, Brian and Bobbie- and to lay out as clearly as possible the problem we as Biblically-minded Christians have with their teaching.

As with the Apollo 13 mission, all appears perfectly in order at the outset when reading one of their books or listening to their sermons. But, also similarly, beneath the surface there are serious and potentially fatal spiritual malfunctions.

So who on earth are they? Frank Houston is a former New Zealand Assemblies of God general superintendent. In 1977 he went on to plant the numerically successful Sydney Christian Life Centre in Australia. He is a 'big noise' in antipodean Pentecostalism, and author of The Release of the Human Spirit (1999, Destiny Image).

His son, Brian, is founder of Hills Christian Life Centre in Sydney, home of the fantastically popular Hillsongs Music (you've probably sung their song 'My Jesus, My Saviour (Shout to the Lord)' by Darlene Zschech if your church dabbles with anything after 1900!). As the blurb on the back of his books says, he "loves life. As one of Australia's most sought after speakers, he has a passion to see people fulfil their potential in every sphere of life. A respected church leader, popular motivational speaker [Greenbelt in the UK this year] and skilled communicator, Brian travels extensively, addressing leadership conferences throughout the world. His television program Life is for Living is broadcast in over 30 nations, and his natural ability to mix humour with a strong, clear message draws him to people of all age groups and backgrounds". His Christian ministry also includes "dynamic community centres that employ professional doctors, a psychologist and financial consultant". These vocations perhaps indicate Brian's three main preoccupations: health, mental wellbeing and self-esteem, and wealth. In this article we will be addressing the last of these preoccupations, and asking whether the emphasis Brian puts on it is Biblical or not."

There may be a lot of shouting to the LORD on judgment day when people discover that they have been deceived. Lord! Lord! they shout. Depart from me, I never knew you. Awesome. Awesome God, awesome.

These shows, American Idol and such like, are a farce. They are of this worlds godless system.

Will part of the lake of fires burning torment be the damned praising and worshiping the LORD Jesus Christ for eternity?

gigantor1231 said...

Douglas

And what you see is just the tip of the iceberg. About 15 years ago I used to go to a church in Portland, Oregon called Bible Temple, lead by a man named Pastor Dick Iverson. Pastor Dick, as we called him, started a corporation, which originally was called star praise, now it is known as CCLI, Christian Copyright Licensing Incorporation! Talk about about a money making proposition.

Steve, I think this is exactly where this topic takes us, it's where the half notes lead! Can you elaborate on this? I could go on about CCLI but my knowledge of the financial aspect of the CCM world pales in comparison to what you know. I do know this, City Bible is a multi million dollar dynasty, if not billion dollar, and that CCLI has helped fuel the machine in part.
Steve, What has your experience been with CCLI? Douglas is absolutely right here no matter how you look at it, this all comes down to big money in the end!

gigantor1231 said...

Steve

Now that I think of it, it would not surprise me if CCLI was the reason why Jesus's name was put back in that song! Check them out, your church probably feeds them money and you do not even know it!

http://www.ccli.com/usa/WhoWeAre/

Only Look said...

It could seem to be good; yet also another attempt by Idol to get Christians to conform to their world and almalgamate and find a happy medium. Idol is the Borg:-)

Grace upon grace,

Brian

gigantor1231 said...

HMMMM "Assimilate or be destroyed."

from Websters;

transitive verb
1 a: to take in and utilize as nourishment : absorb into the system
b: to take into the mind and thoroughly comprehend

2 a: to make similar
b: to alter by assimilation
c: to absorb into the culture or mores of a population or group

Reminds me of Romans 12: 1 and 2 and Deuteronomy 8: 3

While we are called by God to not be conformed to the world He calls us to be transformed by the renewing of our minds that we might know what that good, acceptable and perfect will of God is. He calls us to lay down our lives which is our 'reasonable' service of worship!

I like transformation better, let the world be sinister and assimilate. Beware of the Borg!

PDS said...

From a believer's perspective, Shepherd is cool with me. But, I understand why this is being debated.

gigantor1231 said...

Y'all

So, here is a question for you then. Try to find out if God addresses this in the word! Does He recognize or hear the worship and praise of the unrighteous, does He accept their sacrifice and offering, with the exception of the sincere prayer from the heart for salvation, does He hear their prayers?
We do rejoice when Christ's name is proclaimed but what is God's response to those that refuse to believe in and follow Him?

bittid23 said...

I was planning on coming to Code Blue tonight in Kettering, but you just changed my mind with this ridiculous article. It's people like you that push the "lost" people away from Christ. Judgmental Christianity is a Religion it's not a relationship. For someone to bash what American Idol did with the song shout to the Lord is ridiculous. They have to edit every song when more people perform and you forgot to mention the next night they sang the complete song with Jesus' name clear and precise. Not to mention a few weeks prior a group sang “This little light of mine" followed by Dolly Parton singing "Jesus and Gravity".

I am so upset by how so called Christians have responded to this I would be surprised to see if Fox allows anything of the Christian aspect on Idol ever again due to the ridiculous bad mouthing of fundamentalists Christians.

I guess you are probably also one of the people who support the nonsense that CS Lewis movies are "hidden Christian" messages any different than Harry Potter or The Lord of the Rings. CS Lewis died a Theist and was a Philosopher of Christianity not a Christian Philosopher.

Not only that but he was also a member of the Inklings....do some research.....in the right direction....how about we address the Christians that are misled...instead of bad mouthing those that might be lost trying to reach out. I wonder what the impact of the nature of Jesus would have on a dying world today...it's obvious the "church" has forgotten its purpose.

bittid23 said...
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gigantor1231 said...

bittid23

'I was planning on coming to Code Blue tonight in Kettering'

What is said is so powerful to you that you let it alter your plans...your life! I know nothing here has been that strong. Are you that weak? This is a discussion of a particular event that used a common piece of Christian music and we have chosen to discuss it in this forum. We have found positive and negative and tried to touch on it all. And you base your schedule on this... ahhh you probably never really wanted to go anyway!

bittid23 said...

Actually, no I let God change my mind. You see, I thought I would be able to learn something by coming to the convention, a more effective way on how to lead those that are lost to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. However I cannot learn anything from someone who condemns the very people we need to be reaching out to.

gigantor1231 said...

bittid23

Wow, if anybody in here has condemned anybody to anything... what have they condemned them to? We have made observations and commented on them.
You on the other hand have condemned us to making unrighteous judgment and worded your response such that we are to blame for a decision that apparently you made by praying to God!

Here is what you said;

'but you just changed my mind with this ridiculous article.'

Are you changing what you said now? So who is the judgmental one bittid23, who is the one that is speaking honestly?

bittid23 said...

First of all nothing that any person could do would change my mind about anything that God has led me to do. However, the actions of a person can open our eyes to situations that we would be better off not walking into.

I think it's funny that you have taken this out of it's original context by saying that no one was condemned. The whole issuance of the article was based on them not saying the name of Jesus the first night when only half of the song was performed. What is so upsetting about this article was that nothing was mentioned about the songs that were sung previously with "This little light of mine" and "Jesus and Gravity". If they were "scared" to say the name of Jesus they would not have done it that night either.

American Idol has helped many people each year through Idol Aid and if anyone would be able to lead them to the Lord, it would be them over someone writing an article like this any day. You know why? Because they reach out to the hurting and they give to those who are in need. However our churches now adays say to those that are in need, "If you will only send five dollars or whatever seed you can afford to recieve one of our miracle cloths, God will bless you abundantly for your obedience".

I was looking forward to going to the conference, and over the last few days I have seen many articles from many fundamentalists "discussing" this same topic of course leaving out the prior songs that were sung, and the next night where they sang the whole song. It was very upsetting to me and when I recieved an email with this article link from the worldview weekend conference I didn't even have to read it before I said outloud, "Oh my gosh nevermind I am not going there." After reading it I was assured that I wasn't going to be going.

If you disagreed with the teachings of someone why would you waste your time to go listen to them? What would be the point? I don't agree with the way a lot of "Christians" teach today. Alot of them have gotten wrapped up in Entertainment preaching, a lot of them have gotten wrapped up in storytelling preaching, a lot of them have gotten wrapped up in pride, and money and self exhaltation rather than the humble loving spirit of Christ which comes with Rebuke when we push the "little one's away."

It's sad to me, because in your first response you accused me of being "weak" and bashed my sense of ability to stand on my own two spiritual feet. If you were a true Christian you would have spoken to me out of love because that is what Christ commands us to do.

Millions of people watch American Idol, millions of people heard the Lord God Almighty glorified on the most watched show in America. Millions of people tuned into Fox with Randy, Paula and Simon and had the praises of the King filling thier homes. Why would anyone who loves God complain about that at all? Why would we take something so significant and run it into the dirt as an intentional move to avoid saying the name of Jesus and make a big deal out of it.

As Christians we do need to wake up, we need to take a step back and look at where the true meaning of what we call ourselves lies. Christlike....he didn't hang out with all the religious folk....he went searching for the hurting, the broken and the lost. He didn't get together with all the righteous folk and talk about what the sinners were doing to try to deny His name. He came to the world to save it, not to condemn it. He came to share His love and to be the light that shines in a dying world. Not the dirt to dump onto a little flicker.

Your observations were false, about the show. And your observations were false about me. If I were weak I would follow weak minded "Christians" who think they are any better than the sinner that doesn't yet know Christ. We are saved by grace and those that don't know the saving grace of Christ are lost. If I were weak, I would point out the "Religious faults in sinners" before sitting down and observing myself and recognizing my own faults first.

littlegal_66 said...

bittid23:

I really want to respond to your comments, but I'd like to know more about who I'd be addressing, so as to better frame my response. I don't think you've read the entire article, nor all of the comments that have been posted here, because you keep alluding to conclusions you've reached from this article/thread which are incorrect conclusions based on what the majority have stated here. I would give specific examples, but I'd prefer to have a better idea of who I'd be having a dialogue with first.

bittid23 said...

Actually I have read the entire article, twice. Once before the top line was changed....and once after the "update". I have also read all of the comments and many people agreed with my basic reason for responding in the first place. I am not actually certain why you need to know who you are addressing but if you would like to know more about who I am you can visit my myspace page at www.myspace.com/christisking2. For the breakdown, I am 32 and have been saved since 1998. I have been involved in outreach ministry for five years including nursing homes and prisons. As well as community outreaches. I am also on our praise and worship team and I have written articles in Christians magazines. That should give you a general idea of who you are talking to.

littlegal_66 said...

bittid23,

Thanks for your reply.

As for my response, you said:

”Not to mention a few weeks prior a group sang ‘This little light of mine’ followed by Dolly Parton singing ‘Jesus and Gravity.’”
--There has been discussion throughout the thread of the fact that other songs with a Christian slant have been sung recently on the show, and Dolly Parton’s was specifically referred to. That’s one of the points-it was a song recently recorded and released by the celebrity mentor, and she was apparently freely permitted to sing “Jesus.”

”Millions of people watch American Idol, millions of people heard the Lord God Almighty glorified on the most watched show in America.”
---Yes, and that was a great thing. I don’t think you’ll find yourself challenged here on that point.

”Millions of people tuned into Fox with Randy, Paula and Simon and had the praises of the King filling thier homes. Why would anyone who loves God complain about that at all?
-- I didn’t think it was a complaint, I thought it was an observation that all of the sudden, after previous instances to the contrary, they omitted Jesus’ name from a song that normally contains it. It added some vagueness to the performance that wouldn’t have been there if the second word of the song had been “Jesus.”

“……….and you forgot to mention the next night they sang the complete song with Jesus' name clear and precise.”
--No, it wasn’t forgotten. As soon as the song was sung the second time, the article was amended to reflect the inclusion of Jesus, and the second version has been referred to several times in the thread.

It's a shame you didn't attend the rally. I think some of the topics the speakers were set to address would have been of benefit to the discussion at hand.

Tina said...

Thanks, I appreciate your reply. I noticed the change in the article reflecting the version that was performed the second night. However the rest of the article remained the same. Whether the song that Dolly Parton performed was an "allowance" or not it was heard by millions. The show has helped millions of people and what upsets me is that this is not by the far the only blog or website that has "questioned" the edited version of the song the first night. But what you must remember is that before they perform the song live....they record the full version on album and not only will it be available on Itunes but it will probably be on this American Idols top tweleve cd that is released at the end of the show.

For Christians to "question" what was done is to push the producers to not include it on the cd out of spite. I know if I was not a Christian and I heard and read all the negative and outragious claims of some of the posts regarding this issue.....I would never allow the name of Jesus to be said on the show ever again.

One of the things you have to realize is that because of the way Christians have responded opens up a door for other "beliefs" and "religions" to raise a big fuss about "thier God" not being glorified.....on the show that is supposed to be "unbiased" which could very much cause other "religions" to be exhalted. And it won't be the producers faults it will be the "Christians" fault.

That is why it has upset me as much as it has. We should all have celebrated and no form of negativity should have came out of anyone's mouth.

Did anyone get saved at the rally?

I do appreciate your Christian conversation over some former replies. Have a blessed day.

Only Look said...

What is always hard for me to understand is why the Christian community seems to always gravitate in hopes of reaching people for Christ through the way of superstardome. Elvis used to sing about Jesus, Joni Mitchell helped to resurface Amazing Grace, Bruce Springsteen devoted an album to old spirituals that Pete Seegar sang.

We talk of baiting people for Christ and attracting them through an Idol culture that has already been singing about Jesus and opening doors to serve Satan for years. The fact is....it is not truly salt and it doesnt sting and preserve the culture, it only further serves to send us realing deeper into the entertainment culture. Yes, for some it does get them to start thinking about Jesus, but in reality it serves to elevate the attractions of the world over the simple and blessed attraction of the lamb of God slain before the foundation of the world. What is more precious than that. Why does Jesus need American Idol to reach us or even an ametuer reggae band on a street corner to improve on the finished work of Christ and the blessed attraction of Him alone?

What has been occuring on Idol is a further venture into the world of Bono who is well intended and compassionate, but is drawing and using alms to amalgamate the religious community from all spheres. Bono has been on stage at some of these events singing and chanting with Christians, Jews and Muslims alike, "Jesus, Jew, Mohammed all true."

Idol has been doing specials in working with him in Africa. I am so thankful for relief, but as we have seen in the Obama and Oprah world(and go to her 'earth is god and everybody in it' website and you will see what is happeing and how desperately we all need to wake up. This alms movement combined with inspirational music is wooing us in a direction that is not of the God of the Bible.

We are not waking up from our slumber and are yeilding to the work of the tares.

I am thankful that God uses men like Steve Camp to wake us from our slumber and remember the firstfruits and our first love.

It is unfortunate that when one respectfully challenges this, they are still seen as a grinch.

Grace upon grace and in hopes that we wake up,

Brian

Tina said...
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Tina said...

Thanks for writing. I appreciate your views and your delivery of them.

I understand what you are saying and agree with you somewhat. However what I don't agree with is that we have the right to say anything about American Idol when so much needs to be done in the church first. If the church was cleaned up we wouldn't have to worry about Idol. I don't know how many churches water down the Word, Water down praise and worship and water down the teaching, but it far outweighs the ones that teach the truth and are tired of entertainment based services.

I would rather see Shout to the Lord sang on Idol any day before seeing a Pastor Flip around doing a cartwheel telling people to high five each other during the delivery of the Word of God.

You go out to eat on Sunday after church every week to see Christians killing themselves with Gluttony. You go to church and hear Pastor preaching against homosexuality while a majority of thier worship team are fornicating and living in unmarried homes. We see so much wrong in the churches today yet we continue to point out what's wrong with the world. The world is going to act like the world, my problem is the church acts like the world and to top that off they want to point out what the "world" is doing wrong.

Everything starts with the church. When the church gets jacked up nothing is going to be right. Just because I might not agree with who someone chooses to acknowledge as thier higher power, doesn't mean I should say they are wrong....the way we evagelize is to love everyone and try to be a light by the way we live and our choices. If we are no freer than they are how are we no more a slave then they? We are called to be witnesses not judges, we are called to be the light in the darkness, not the finger pointer in the park.

I think it was a big thing for Idol to do what they did and to help people the way they did. We don't have to use Idol to share the gospel, people don't have to watch The Passion to be moved by what Jesus did...but it sure does have a vast impact on each person who watches it. Jesus is all that matters....and if the church was doing what it was supposed to do....American Idol would not be helping those in need more than the church. The church anymore, helps itself......especially the church that is in the sight of the media.

God gave us all that we have for free.....it should be freely given as His word says. Jesus didn't live in a half a million dollar home or fly anywhere in a jet.....so why should any one called to serve live so extravagantly.....without seeing a vast impact on those in need coming out of the same place.

There are too many issues within' the body of Christ for us to start pointing at those who don't even claim to serve Him.........

That was all I was wanting to say.

gigantor1231 said...

Tina

I want to remind you, and I do this out of love for you as a Christian. You came in here with a beef about what this web site was discussing about the current topic of Idol and it's pseudo praise and worship! Just a FYI, we are not in charge of this web sight. To be quite frank with you what happens on Idol is not even worth addressing publicly, other than for the purpose of drawing Christians attention to how there is a false religion out there that desires to hijack the true body and have it lock arms with the false church of the world!
When I first responded to you my response was that 'perhaps' you were just weak because you were allowing this sight determine your schedule for you, and those were your words, not mine;

just to clarify, you said;

'I was planning on coming to Code Blue tonight in Kettering, but you just changed my mind with this ridiculous article. It's people like you that push the "lost" people away from Christ. Judgmental Christianity is a Religion it's not a relationship.'

Now, either you are sincere about judging and pointing fingers or you feel that you are the only one that can criticize others because you are more righteous than they are.
My response to you has been out of sincerity, and based on what I heard from your words. I said it because you used us as a excuse to not go to some event, that you apparently thought was worth going to at some point. You chose to use us as your scape goat. Or did you not mean to write it that way?
I know that you do not see what I said as loving, but perhaps you can go back and tell what it was that I did that was not loving! Was it because I challenged what you said. Was it something I said about IDOL that you did not like? Do you own up to the judgment you have passed onto us? You still have not pointed out one point of condemnation
As for the Church and the job that it is supposed to do, I can not say that I disagree with you to a point... but, you lump everyone in with all of the negative things that you have put together in your mind and you seem to see that the church is not fulfilling what it is supposed to do. So, you have chosen to malign the 'Bride of Christ.' Do you really think that what you say is accurate based upon the true body, or do you just choose to focus on all the worldly people that have chosen to infiltrate it and exploit it? You make your judgment based on a very narrow slice of what you see as the church, but who can blame you, there are so many 'so called' Christians that teach and say the same thing and they have absolutely no authority to do so, nor do they know what they are speaking about because their view is so limited!
Look, I do not want to offend you, but when you come here swinging a battle axe, don't expect a response with a feather! This venue is for discussing topics that are here and now, and if that means pulling down a thought or topic that builds itself up against the knowledge of Christ, the truth, then we do that too. I have to be honest with you, we as Christians need to get more leathery in our disposition when it comes to confronting non truth, and error, just because someone tells you that you are wrong about something does not mean that they do not love you or care for you!
As far as 'IDOL' goes, it fits it's name and to be honest with you, the things that it has done in the name of charity and philanthropy has done little to help anyone, that is unless you include treating cancer with a bandaid. Idol is and alway will be about MONEY.

As Forrest would say; 'Thats all I gotta say about that!'

Tina said...

First of all, I have to say that I recieved an email notifying me of the Code Blue Rally. Which I registered and was going to print out the coupons and my husband and I had been looking forward to going to it all week. After the song was originally performed on American Idol, I started reading and seeing a lot of flack being said about them not using the name of Jesus when they didn't sing the whole song.

I personally sat there as it was performed and said out loud "watch some Christians will complain about them not saying Jesus". And lo and behold it was spread like wildfire, even though the song on ITUNES was the entire version where the name of Jesus was said clearly.

Friday I received an email from the same place that sent me the email about the Code Blue Rally with a Reminder of the rally and a link to this blog. I had already been frustrated by the ones I had seen and as soon as I read it I said, "Well, honey I don't want to go to that now."

I was not using this "blog" as an excuse not to go somewhere that would be idiotic. If I wanted to use it as an excuse I could have deleted the email not went and not have said anything to anyone on here. However because of the fact that I had gotten so aggravated by what Christians had been saying about it I felt led to write a response.

"In my opinion" it is ignorant for any Christian to judge an unsaved persons lack of integrity. In my opinion the church already has enough problems of it's own to be nitpicking the world. American Idol does not claim to be a Christian Broadcast station, or at least it didn't the last time I checked. It is a very uplifting show in my opinion. It doesn't do anything degrading, and many of the people that end up in the top twelve are Christian singers who end up producing gospel albums after each season.

You say American Idol is all about the money.....well if you ask many worldly people what the "church" was about they would say the same thing. And from what you see on TV minus a few true Television Evangelists they are correct on thier assumption. When you have to pay for a prayer cloth something is wrong with that picture.

American Idol does not take money from anyone. Actually it is the exact opposite. They give cars away in sweepstakes, and they help those in need by the donations that come in. They are not saying that "God will bless you for giving." They are not saying, "Look deep in your heart and see what God would have you to do."

However, they take a song that glorifies our risen Lord and Savoir and they sing it on the night that has the most viewers and celebreties watchin than any other television program all year long. That would be like the NFL allowing someone to sing "If we are the body" by Casting Crowns at half time. And I guess since they only say "His hands" instead of Jesus' hands they could be referring to anyone right?

Problem is you will never see a song anywhere close to that performed on NFL cause they are too busy allowing peformers to rip their clothes off.

You see the "church" and I mean those who truly love God with all thier heart should never point fingers at "the world" for bringing some church into it. We have too many "Christians" bringing the world into the "church". I don't expect American Idol to give an altar call, or lead someone to the saving knowledge of Christ. But, by opening up the opportunity for that song to be performed millions could be impacted by the message in a song that was anointed when it was written and gives all glory to our risen Savoir.

So, my beef was not about "you or anyone else stopping me from going to the rally". My beef was that "Christians" are being judgmental of those who aren't even saved!!! I don't find myself to be more righteous than anyone nor do I find myself to be more knowledgable than anyone. What I do find myself is realizing that if it wouldn't have been for something happening in the world I would have never gotten to know the Lord Jesus as my Savoir. Because no church would have ever directed me in the right direction.

You want to know who helped me find my way to Christ? Scott Stapp, the lead singer of Ex-Creed. Because he was searching the same way that I was....but listening to thier music stirred something up in me enough to get me searching for what I was missing. Now he didn't lead me to Christ....but no man can lead another man to his own heart. Only God can remove the veil from our eyes and if He can reach me through the words performed by and unsaved man, than He can stir up millions of others as well.

American Idol is not watered down Christianity....it's normal people searching for thier purpose and destiny....

We as Christians need to be more aware that we all have enough things within' ourselves that we need to work on and enough things going on inside the church that needs to be written about and taught on without nitpicking what is going on in peoples lives and shows who don't claim to be saved.

I don't point fingers at any Christian who has faults or is still learning and growing. I definitely don't point fingers at those that don't know Jesus as thier Lord and Savoir.....what I will do and what I feel led to do is to Rebuke those who do one or the other, because that is not Biblical. If we see a brother in sin, go to them and talk to them. Try to get them to turn from thier ways.

I didn't leave a comment on this blog to upset anyone. What I did was try to get the point across that there is too much going on "inside" the Christian community to question what is going on outside of it.

Like I said before, we are called to be witnesses not judges. We are called to love the lost not dispute them. We are called to be the light in a dark world, not the water that destroys a little flicker of fire. We are called to be disciples seeking out those who are thirsty, not dehydrating those who are looking for a drink.

Read through this article and this blog through the perception of someone who doesn't know Christ, or someone who is a Muslim, or someone who is a Jew, or someone who is an Athiest....would it lead you to wanting to know Jesus as your Lord and Savoir? It should....cause if it doesn't we are all wasting time.

That is my point. It wouldn't. It would only make them sneer at our faith just like most everything else does that Christianity in the Media realm does.

Douglas said...

American Idol idolizes people and the American people in turn idolize them and the LORD God almighty will have no other Idols before Him, American or not, singing Scripture or not. When one watches "Shout to the Llord" being sung by Hillsong, it is repeated over and over and over again, the singers, both on stage and in the audience, are led into an altered state of consciousness, arms raised and waving, eyes closed and body swaying. Much of so called modern "praise and worship" thesse days result in that sort of thing. It is like they become mindless.

Psalm 100(NKJV)
Make a joyful shout to the LORD, all you lands! Serve the LORD with gladness; Come before His presence with singing. Know that the LORD, He is God; It is He who has made us, and not we ourselves; We are His people and the sheep of His pasture. Enter into His gates with thanksgiving, And into His courts with praise. Be thankful to Him, and bless His name. For the LORD is good; His mercy is everlasting, And His truth endures to all generations.

I have never seen the fear or holiness of God emanate from Hillsong. I do not see them trembling at God's word. How many do these days?

Tina said...

When was the last time you lead people in worship?

gigantor1231 said...

Tina

Why do you want to know when the last time I or any of us here have lead worship?

SJ Camp said...

To All
I have taken a few days off from the blog to give my attention to my family. Thank you for carrying on in a good spirit from all that I have seen and for the diverse opinions posted here.

As one who has been in Christian music for thirty years; also having served in pastoral ministry and in itinerant ministry currently as well, I hope that this article offered a unique perspective on this issue.

What I find interesting in this is that people seem so zealous for any mention of the Lord in the marketplace - no matter how vague - that to biblically stand up for the name of the Lord Jesus Christ being fairly represented has come under fire.

Please note: I am not a fundamentalist; I am reformed by conviction and biblical mandate. When any secular agency tries to edit the faith in song or word, we should be outraged and not succumb to sentimentalism.

As I said in this article, I don't fault FOX, but I do hold them responsible. There is a difference.

Lastly, may this be an opportunity to speak biblically and clearly to the culture about the importance and exclusivity of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Keep on...
Campi

PS - I led worship two Sunday's ago in two different churches; preached the Word; did a worship concert; and proclaimed the gospel.

Tina, hope this helps a bit...

Tina said...

Hope your family is doing well.

I think it's interesting that you say that;

"When any secular agency tries to edit the faith in song or word, we should be outraged and not succumb to sentimentalism."

I don't know how many times I have to say this but the whole song was not performed that first night. They Had to edit it the same way all the other songs the idols sing get edited, it wasn't because it was a Christian song. That is what upset me so much with this blog.

They never had an issue with the name of Christ being used in song on American Idol, like I mentioned earlier in previous weeks Dolly Parton sang Jesus and Gravity.

Fox is not responsible for anything but helping millions of people in need and "Choosing" to have the idols sing a song of the Christian faith. Yeah it is American Idol and I watch it every year and I enjoy it. I also read the Word of God everyday and I don't put any "Idol" above God. If you can't watch a television show that is entertaining without being accused of worshipping "Idols" something is wrong with your faith.

An Idol is something you put before God. I seriously doubt that anyone who is truly saved that watches American Idol worships that show more than they do God. That is absurd. However I do recognize many other things that "Christians" put before God that doesn't have anything to do with the television.

You can't hold an unsaved person accountable for anything! We do not have that calling. The only people we have authority by God to hold accountable are those who are in the faith as we are.

The song shout to the Lord was recorded in the studio and on Itunes before they performed it that first night complete and beautifully performed with the name of Jesus clearly spoken.

It will still hopefully be on the cd released by the top twelve as long as Christians haven't ruined it by accusing them of misusing a beautiful song.

The song was not vague...but the love for the lost in todays Christian culture is. We are supposed to love them to the Lord not judge them to repentance. There is one...and the only judgment that is allowed is supposed to start in the "church" that is the Biblical mandate. The Biblical mandate is to go into the highways and the biways and persuade them to Christ. Not to accuse sinners of sin and point out things you don't like about them.

That is almost as absurd as people saying that Oprah Wimphrey is a false prophet. Oprah doesn't claim to follow Jesus! So she can't be a false prophet! One has to proclaim Christ and mislead the truth...in order to be a false prophet....one who promises this and that in the name of Jesus and is a lie....Oprah is not even of the Christian Faith.

Leading people in worship as you probably know is not about how broken you are it's about how hungry everyone else is that is present. Hillsong had blessed many people and have probably lead many people to the Lord. For someone to claim they are not well....I am sure you know what the Bible says about not to touch God's anointed.....the spirit of God had left Saul.....but David still didn't touch him.....even if someone does lose thier humble spirit doesn't mean they aren't anointed....even if someone does get caught up in "performing" rather than a "broken worship" once someone is called they are called and it's up to God to bring them back to thier knees by and through the spirit. But we should be slow to speak anything negative of those whose impact in Christianity has been as large as Hillsongs.

I don't know what they are like now, but I know that song moves my spirit no matter who sings it...because to me those words are to my Lord and my spirit rejoices in knowing that. I applaud American Idol for allowing them to sing that song and I will stand firm on that.

I have been involved in the praise and worship team for seven years now and our praise and worship team are now working on a cd. I also write worship songs. I sing from my spirit and my heart. I have also sang solo at prisons and nursing homes and in church.

It's odd....to say that I seen the most heartfelt worship in the places where you would think people would be the most bound. In prison......they lift thier hands and weep....in most churches they stand there and watch you in thier eyes "perform" waiting for you to do something instead of entering in to praise themselves.

Tina said...

The comment that was left about Hillsong.

gigantor1231 said...

Tina

When Paul was speaking to the Epicureans and Stoics as well as other people that held to worshiping idols, was he wrong when he said

Romans 17: 30, 31

"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."?

He was specifically speaking to the unsaved here and he specifically told them that they were in ignorance and that they were going to be judged by God for it!
Through out time there have been men like Charles Spurgeon, Johnathan Edwards, John Wesley and I could go on and on with the names of preachers that spoke to the unsaved and pointed out their sin. I can show you other passages in the bible where the unsaved are addressed and their sin is pointed out in hopes that they would repent, Acts 2: 14-36. My point is that you are saying that this is wrong! Why are you saying this is wrong? Do you have any scriptural support for taking such a stand?
Obviously you have a poor image of the church, at least the part of the church that you are in! Why do you paint the body of Christ with such ugliness, and where do you feel the word of God gives you the authority to malign the bride of Christ? Do you know who the architect and chief builder of the church is?
I would sincerely like to hear what your answers are to these questions!

Tina said...

First of all you made my point for me......read that scripture out loud to yourself.....

"through a MAN whom He has appointed having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

He was speaking of Jesus...we are supposed to reflect Christ....when the woman who committed adultery came and all the "Righteous stood accusing her" He said what...??

Those of you without sin cast the first stone...they all had to go away from Him. Are you without sin? I know I am not and it wasn't from someone pointing out my sin that caused me to repent it was realizing how much Jesus loved me that caused me to repent.

When the prostitute came and knelt at the feet of Jesus and opened her alabaster box do you think it was because the pharisees was throwing stones at her and telling her how much of a sinner she was? No, it was because she was broken inside herself.

Jesus came to the world not to condemn it but to save it. Aren't we called to be His followers? To be the salt of the World...not the water hose?

We aren't here to clean the world up....we are here to plant seeds of love and revelation into the hearts of those who are willing to listen....building a bridge of reconciliation for them.

Pointing out someones sins is pointless...it is throwing stones. It accomplishes nothing. Most people who get saved and stay saved don't get there by being "afraid" to go to hell. Most people who truly get saved and continue to grow get saved because the love of God became true in thier heart and the blinders of the world was removed by His spirit.

God sais that judgement begins in the house of God....which is what? It's not a church building...it is yourself. It is all of us that claim to be saved by the undying grace of Christ...if we continue to look at ourselves....and search ourselves and die daily to ourselves to allow God to use us completely we won't have time to point out someone elses sins.

Our righteousness stinks in the nostrils of God. Stand in the mirror....and look and point at yourself until you have no more sin in your life.....than start pointing out sin in others.

The only time our speach should impact someone who is lost is by convincing them that God loves them and wants them to allow Him to begin to change thier life and circumstances that He wants to be thier eternal Savoir.

After a person is saved and ONLY after a person is saved does the Bible instruct us that "If we see a brother in sin......go to him and confront him and if he turns from his sin...he shall be redeemed."

I do have a negative image of the Bride of Christ....because it is so divided and so separated and so misdirected. I have been in several churches and revivals and meetings and seen so much rediculous nonsense going on that it makes the spirit of God in me cringe. When was the last time you went to a Revival that wasn't about getting a bunch of already saved folk to shout and dance...but it was about setting a fire inside strong enough to burn through the hearts of those in the city who were lost so they would come seeking the truth of Christ?

When was the last time you seen a street revival where the love of God radiated so strongly people were drawn out of thier homes to an altar to recieve the grace of Christ.

I have found a wonderful church where my Pastor teaches the truth, where the worship is from the heart and where we acknowledge that we all sin and fall short of the glory of God. Where when we see someone lost without Christ we embrace them rather than point out what they are doing wrong.

Christ did not hang out in synagogues except to tell the religious folk what they were doing wrong.....He talked with the sinners and tried to draw them in through action and spirit not condemnation.

The way many people who claim to follow Christ approach lost people today would turn me off from asking Christ to come into my heart if I were lost. Because the Bible says that perfect love casts out all fear. That is what brought me to Christ....His perfect love for me...and if you have fear of going to hell because of your sin....you will never be free from the fear, because we always have sin in our life. None of us are perfect.

We strive for the mark which is Christ...and one day if we continue to work on ourselves considering the Bible says...for us to seek out our own salvation....and not point out someone elses we are to be witnesses...to spread the gospel...not to spread condemnation. We are to be front runners of the Word and the Word is Christ. The only time He got angry is when the fig tree didn't produce fruit and when they turned His Father house into a den of thieves......you ask me why am I angry at the church......
Think about it....what fruit is the church producing...and how many Pastors are turning thier calling into a money making business?

What I give unto you....give freely unto others......

Tis a shame that none of you here can even step back for a moment and glimpse a portion of what I have been wasting my time here sharing on this blog site.

I am not going to comment anymore here. The Bible instructs me not to debate the Word with other believers and I believe that is where this has arrived. I love you all as brothers and sisters and though we don't agree on many issues I now you all want to see people accept Christ and recieve Eternal life through repentance.

I know you all believe in the Cross of Calvary and as Paul so politely shared in similarity to this...I go in peace knowing that you love Jesus and believe in the Cross of Christ and I do as well.

Ephesians 2:13-18
"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition bewteen us; having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby; And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father."

Only Look said...

I really think that what is happening today is that the entertainment industry along with Idol or Harpo productions and many of those sympathetic to Romanism and the New Age movement are really playing monkey in the middle with either the name of Jesus or the true representation of the God of the Bible who is the real Jesus.

Everyones amalgamatin anymore. Why cant we see it, from Obama preaching at Rick Warrens church last year to Oprah supporting him as well, to Bono and the whole Idol crowd in Africa....its just happening in front or our eyes and we all seem to continue to feed the beast with a sincere desire to hear the name of Jesus spoken from Hollywood?

Why are we always seeking the living among the dead?

Here is a clip about the Oprah movement:

Strong Delusion

gigantor1231 said...

Tina

I came to you with sincere questions and you come back with this?:

'Tis a shame that none of you here can even step back for a moment and glimpse a portion of what I have been wasting my time here sharing on this blog site.'

What a ugly statement, I now see why you see the body of Christ the way you do!
My point is that people need the truth, which is Christ and Christ was God in the flesh! Christ calls us to be honest with every person and to cut it straight 'the truth will set them free.' You running and being unwilling to communicate shows how legalistic and far from the truth you are.
I do not disagree with what you say with respect to evangelizing the lost, we should speak to those that are lost with gentleness and compassion and truth. We have not seen revivals, as they did in Johnathan Edwards day, because people do not have a reverence and fear for God, they do not know the truth. Yes, God absolutely is love, but part of His love is a terrible judgment that comes to those that do not believe, to those that choose to live in sin, it sounds to me like this is something that you do not choose to look at! How sad for you!
As far as your disdain for the body of Christ, remember that Jesus is it's Architect, and when you impugn it you impugn Him. Judgment begins in the house of God via Christ and those that He raises up to expound and deliver His judgment! I assure you that you are not one to be judging Tina!

Tina said...

I will leave you with a definition of what you called me which fits you perfectly.....cause you see I believe I am saved by faith...not of the world but in the world....saved by faith through grace which is love...which is how we are all supposed to be saved....not saved by conviction...saved by and through love. God's perfect love.

Below is the definition of legalism for you since you couldn't stand to just agree on the cross and let this go.

YOU SAID
"You running and being unwilling to communicate shows how legalistic and far from the truth you are."



Now, pray tell, what really is a legalist? There is a false definition of legalism and a Biblical definition. In the thinking of most Christians, any presentation of Christianity which maintains standards, practices separation from the world and has a code of conduct is guilty of legalism. This notion is expressed in the liberal Dictionary of Philosophy which defines legalism as “The insistence on a strict literal or overt observance of certain rules of conduct, or the belief that there are rules which must be so obeyed.” Christians who decry legalism invariably turn to the book of Galatians for a Scriptural indictment of legalism. Galatians is the book that speaks against legalism and warns believers not to let themselves be put under the law. But this “legalism” described and written against the Galatians is not the legalism spoken against today. The Biblical concept of legalism is far different.

Biblical “legalism” was the teaching advanced by some of the Jewish community which insisted that it was necessary to keep some of the law of Moses in order to gain salvation. To them salvation was gained by faith in Christ and observing the legal system of Moses. Webster properly defines legalism in this way as “the doctrine of salvation by good works.” Paul wrote the Galatian epistle to counteract such legalism and make it plain that salvation was by faith alone, without the deeds of the law. “...a man is not justified by the works of the law” (2:16); “...if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain” (2:21); “...that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident...” (3:11); “...if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law” (3:21); “...the law as our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith” (3:24). Against this backdrop of maintaining that legal observances have nothing to do with our salvation Paul exhorts, “Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage” (5:1). Let us be clear. The legalism which the apostle opposed was that thinking which made the observance of the law a condition of salvation.

God does not grant anyone judgment of another...only of ourselves.....you can find that in scripture in several places. That is what was meant by judgment begins in the house of God...or have you forgotten we are the temple in which He resides? Man oh man....I am not a judge...I was asked questions and I gave my response....

Then I get this.....accusation when the Bible clearly instructs us....
Titus 3:8-10
"This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintian good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies and contentions, and strivings about the law, for they are unprofitable and vain. A man is a heretick after the first and second admonition reject. Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself."

Again...not running trying to be obedient to the instruction of the Word that you feel I know so little about.

You can assure me all you want that I am not one to be judging...and I will tell you that you are right....over and over again....however when I see someone judging a sinner...that's when I have to step in as my Savoir did years ago....and say hey.....you want to throw the first stone.....just drawing in the sand here. Take it or leave...as for me I am leaving it with that and bidding you a farewell....we could go on forever disagreeing....but I still respect you and your thoughts I just don't agree with them.

gigantor1231 said...

Tina

I was wrong to call you legalistic, you are not. It is apparent that you believe that we are limited to a very narrow margin of truth when it comes to speaking to those that are unsaved! If you tell someone that they are to 'repent and turn from their sins' that implies a gospel of works. We can only tell the sinner how much God loves them and point them to the fact that Christ loved them so much that He died for them. I do not disagree, it is just not "ALL" of the truth!
I hold to the entire Bible as my guide to life and all of it brings us to one point in time and that is Christ's Crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection for us. Unless all men and women come to the cross and give their life to Christ, they will perish in their sins. Problem is that they are dead in their sins and they are deaf and blind so God has to do it all. This is the true Gospel, and Mt. 28 gives us our mandate;

"All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

So, just as Jesus did to the unsaved, so we are to do as well, teach as we go. Did you strike that part from the Bible where it says teaching them all that I commanded you? He will do the rest, we just sow, water and reap!
I never said to go in condemnation, as you assert, rather grace and compassion with the entire truth.

Tina said...

I said I was done going back and forth and I meant it.

Peace and love in Christ~

gigantor1231 said...

Tina

Read John MaCarthur's "The Gospel According to Jesus!" It will enlighten your understanding of the truth greatly!

Tina said...

I am glad you think I need enlightening....we all do.

However at least I have come to the understanding that the love of Christ is more powerful than any other tool we can use, however you feel that pointing out a persons sin is "just as powerful". If someone gets accepts Christ out of fear of thier sin....they only accept Him as Savoir....however if someone accepts Christ because they realize how much He loves them....they accept Him as LORD and Savior...I don't feel God would have emphasized that part of the Bible if there was not reason for it. We see so many falling away from the faith today because of the thinking that "if you point out thier sin they will get saved idea." If they only come forward because of that....they will soon realize they will never be without sin completely and they give up.

God's love is the only tool we need to lead others to Him and God is the only one who reaps the harvest.

None of us who have truly accepted Christ as LORD and SAVIOR are where we were then. We all continue to grow...and mature...and I too used to think the same way you did until I actually began to listen to the world and what turns them off so much from "God" and believe it or not it is God's "people" that push them away the most.

You and I will never see the same way because you have either been taught and continue to be taught the way that you think....or you haven't reached the next level yet. You think of the story of the prodical son and his story.....that is another one of the examples I was talking about.....he knew how much his father loved him that is why he went back.....

I will be praying for you that you come to the place where you believe the love of God is more powerful than any form of revealing someone's sin to them. Someone opening thier heart to the love of God.....is truly accepting Him as Lord and Savoir....when you know someone loves you that much you have no problem allowing them to reign in your life.....

but when you fear doing something wrong will lead you to hell and you just don't want to go to hell....then you only look for a Savior....instead of talking to me about it....why don't you take a survey.....when you go to work....or whatever you do ask a couple of different people who you know are far from going to church...tell them you don't want to try to change thier mind but you simply have one question for them....ask them why they choose not to become a Christian. Make sure you ask people you normally don't talk to.

I am not debating with you or anyone else. Please know that I am trying to encourage all of you that the Love of Christ is the the most powerful tool to leading people to repentance. And if they won't hear that...they definitely won't hear anything else.

bartlewis said...

Steve,

Sorry to not actually read your whole post...I skipped to the scripture focus...but I got to say...and I'm sure most don't understand why it's "so funny" but I fell in the floor laughing about your comparison of this particular episode of American Idol to the Mars Hill Community on Sunday morning and for everyone else it's like Saturday night at the bowling alley.

If they just would've worn pimped out bowling shoes with those Bennie Hinn style white uniforms...

by the way, I threw up a pretty active post about this whole American Idol deal as well.

Bart Lewis
parentsgeeksandgod.com
bart@bartlewis.org