Wednesday, March 19, 2008

OBAMANATION
...when standing for what is Wright, is clearly wrong

Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness;
Who substitute bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes,
And clever in their own sight!
-Isaiah 5:20-21


Link: sevenload.com

Newt is a brilliant political mind and is spot on of his analysis of Barack Obama's puscillanimous speech yesterday. This was a quintessential exercise on Barack's intellectual dishonesty and political expediency. I.e. Obama has no trouble denouncing Don Imus, but can't seem to bring himself to doing the same with "reverend Wright." Here is the question: if Obama really thought that J. Wright's words were divisive, hateful, race-baiting, anti-American and not fit for a pastor to espouse (mind you, words that were factually and fundementally wrong) why wait until now to voice his disgust over "reverend Wright's" inflammatory words when he has been exposed to this kind of consistent sardonic ranting for some twenty years? These There is only two plausible reasons: he wasn't troubled at all with anything that "reverend Wright" has expounded in the past; OR, he only was supportive of "reverend Wright" as long as it remained local, private, and not damaging to his political aspirations.

End game: seems that Senator Obama really doesn't stand for change at all; and is nothing new for the political landscape to consider. He is just another presidential wannabe who is willing to only stand for what is right when it could cost him an election. But even then, he failed - for in the end, he only stood for what is Wright.

17 comments:

A Christian Prophet said...

Barack Obama gave a good speech on race, but it's being argued that it was designed to distract attention from much more damaging non-racial aspects of his THEOLOGY. See:
http://christianprophecy.blogspot.com/

David said...

Steve,

I agree, but I disagree.

The speech was about Pastor Wright, but Obama used the speech as a springboard to talk about the current state of racism, black and white, in this country. It wasn't pusillanimous, not was it contrived. It was a brilliant speech.

You have to separate the man from his pastor. My pastor and I recently had a falling out because I disagreed with his religious stances becoming overridden by his politcal ones. Pastor Wright has done the same thing, and it's awful. Do I believe everything that my pastor believes? No, but on the fundamentals of our faith, we certainly do. You have to take it from there.

Obama certainly isn't a raving liberal, more of a centrist, and really he's the more liberal side to McCain's slightly more conservative side. We have a contest this cycle where there is truly no extremes this time, at least when the parties have their conventions. That said, Obama finally has a chink in his armour, and it's about time.

I didn't mean to make this an overtly political posting (I'm an independent conservative), but since the topic is here, I wanted to add my two cents.

jfg said...

I am going to have respectfully disagree with you. I felt Obama's speech was well delivered and Net Gingrich is not someone I would hold up as a good political commentator (contract with America anyone?)

donsands said...

Obama has been with this church leader for 20 years. He was married by him. His daughters were baptized by him.

This so called pastor speaks words that cause division. The Apostle Paul told us to mark, and avoid this people, who cause division, and do not serve the Lord Jesus Christ, but their own bellies.

This man has big time problems, and Obama was with him for 20 years.

What seems to be the problem here with understanding this is so wrong.

Bill Clinton said, "It all depends what is is."

This reminds me of that.

Thanks Steve for sharing this. We need to speak the truth, and always in love, and knowing, but for the grace of God, there go I.

SJ Camp said...

David
Some good thoughts here...

But Obama IS a liberal; a socialist by conviction. What would you point to that would lead someone to think he is a moderate or more of a centrist?

I do agree with you that I don't support the convictions of my pastor on everything. BUT that is not the argument with Obama. He heard racial black liberation theology preached at him for twenty and did and said nothing.

Even Oprah (a former member of Wright's church) according to news reports - left the church in the early nineties over these very same concerns.

Gingrich got this right: "it was intellectually fundamentally dishonest."

Can I get an amen?
Campi

PDS said...

Amen! This is such a joke. Wright isn't a "pastor"; he's a politician occupying the pulpit.

Obama's judgment is rightly being questioned.

gigantor1231 said...

Steve

I have to say that some of the things that you post catch me by surprise, no offense but I think that your thinking in the world arena needs to be a little less Republican and a little more scripturally circumspect.
First off, as I have viewed Barrack as well as the other candidates I try to focus on the fruit that I have seen them bare in their lives and then base my judgment on that. As far as Senator Obama is concerned, for all his claims of being a born again Christian, the fruit that he bares is anything but, support of abortion, stem cell research as well as the individuals that he chooses to hang with, it all just says unsaved pagan to me! To be fair I do not see Newt as any different, I certainly do not see him standing up for Christ, neither he nor Obama know or claim to know that sin is the problem and Christ is the answer to that problem, and, I may be wrong here, I have never heard Newt apologize for the affair that he had!
I guess that my point to all of this is that we need to think Biblically with regards to everything that comes our way in life, God is sovereign and He alone is all powerful. Obama, Gingrich, Clinton and whoever else, is ultimately going to move the way God wants to, so, no worries mate. We just need to be obedient and keep on glorifying the living God, carry out our civic responsibilities and think, act and judge Biblically, I guarantee that if we do God will take care of the rest!

David said...

Steve,

I still say that someone can make up their own mind. Oprah left the church? Great. How many didn't? Oprah's not exactly a Christian anymore, so I wouldn't use her as an example.

On Gingrich...he would be the last person that I would use to describe a lack of honesty. 4 marriages? That said, his point is valid...you've got your amen. :)

BlueDeacon said...

This is what happens when well-meaning but uninformed ideological conservatives use their limited understanding of a different cultural context to condemn another person in the name of Christ. What should bother us is not so the words that Wright may use -- and I'm willing to bet that Wright got a standing O when he was on a roll -- but the division that has always existed in this country among Christians along racial, cultural and socio-economic lines. Funny, virtually no one who claims "good theology" is asking about that division. But Obama is and I appreciated that speech.

It's pointless to debate "theology" on such matters because, when you're dealing with a people who understand oppression, some of it first-hand, you really don't have the time or energy to consult it; you have to deal with life as it is. This is why Reformed theology, as much as I personally subscribe to it, often cannot speak to the poor and powerless; historically its subscribers have from time to time been on the "wrong side" (most notably in South Africa during apartheid).

And frankly, Steve, calling Obama a socialist is completely out of line. It's a slur, an inaccurate protrayal of his views and far beneath someone who claims to be a follower of Jesus Christ. With all due respect, you owe us, let alone the LORD, an apology.

gigantor1231 said...

BD

"This is what happens when well-meaning but uninformed ideological conservatives use their limited understanding of a different cultural context to condemn another person in the name of Christ.

Who are the ideological conservatives that you speak of BD? Sounds to me that you just have a chip on your shoulder. No surprise though, you seem to speak a lot of non authoritative rhetoric and fail to address what the real problem and issues are! Try looking to yourself, like we all should. address the issue of sin that separates us from God and then you will know where all men stand, the problem is not the socio-economic gap, it is sin! The answer lies at the foot of the cross where Christ died and until you come to that conclusion all the problems that you see and try to draw attention to will never get better, they will always exist.

"but the division that has always existed in this country among Christians along racial, cultural and socio-economic lines."

The problem here is that this division will always exist because someone will always have something someone else wants. True equality will never exist because of men's selfish desires and the flesh, true freedom only exists in total dependence on Christ, He is the one that sets free and only He has the answer! As long as cultures focus on what they see as divisions and inequalities things will remain the same. Men like Rev. Wright, Farrakahn, Jesse Jackson want it to remain that way because any change for the better will threaten their grab for power, they thrive on the pain of others, hmmmm sounds like fascism to me!

"I'm willing to bet that Wright got a standing O when he was on a roll."

So did Adolf Hitler, Farrakahn, Jesse Jackson, so what, they are men that speak from their flesh and what they say and teach brings death and bondage instead of life and liberty! If they wanted to have answers they would direct people to look to Christ alone, take their eyes off their own problems and apparent oppressions and turn to the one that has the answers, His name is Jesus!

Look, your words betray you, if you knew what you were talking about you would know that the only answer is knowing God, knowing what He desires and He does not desire that people focus on apparent inequalities! He would have them focus on Christ and take upon themselves His yoke, because it is easy and a lite burden. If more people knew this then more people would serve others and let them know the truth, perhaps there would be relief. Guys like you and the Rev. Wright seem to focus on the problem and not the answer, speak hate speech and feed violent and hateful passions, this is not Christ. You need to change or the problems just go on! I think that you are the one that should apologize BD, and the first one that you should apologize to should be Christ!

BlueDeacon said...

gigantor123 -- As far as I'm concerned, you just stuck your foot in your mouth with that last post. As someone who attends a church that ministers extensively to people in the 'hood, I say that sincerely because you have clearly demonstrated that you don't know what you're talking about. Let me answer you point by point.

The problem here is that this division will always exist because someone will always have something someone else wants.

Well, it didn't exist in the early church, at least in Jerusalem, because its members were concerned about each other. Besides, in those days the church had to be tenacious because it had no friends, especially anyone in authority, and in fact never sought them. But here in America we demand that the culture bow to us and we get all huffy when it tells us that it can't accept what we have to say. What do you expect non-believers to do?

If they wanted to have answers they would direct people to look to Christ alone, take their eyes off their own problems and apparent oppressions and turn to the one that has the answers, His name is Jesus!

What do you then do with a Martin Luther King Jr. -- was the civil-rights movement illegitimate because he made demands of society? Do you reasonably expect people simply to accept evil? Heck no, and in fact you wouldn't respect anyone who did. In fact, King more than anyone else put legs on the Gospel in a way I understood it; that brought me to faith in Christ. (And toward the end of his life even he was breathing fire.) God does not tolerate passivity from His people; He demands that they do something and He empowers them in the process.

I also daresay you probably haven't read the Old Testament prophets (which I read regularly) in their original context. They actually used stronger language than Wright did and received the same response from "religious" people who loved their religious culture far more than the LORD. That concerns me about evangelicalism in general and Reformed "culture" in particular -- often it is so stuck where it is that it cannot recognize His voice from "unapproved" sources; however, He is far, far larger than the constraints we put on Him.

Guys like you and the Rev. Wright seem to focus on the problem and not the answer, speak hate speech and feed violent and hateful passions, this is not Christ.

You just demonstrated such "hateful passion" in your response to me, which didn't surprise me in the least. So who's "not being Christ" here?

In short, I stand by what I say and will not apologize for it because I believe that it will eventually be understood as from the LORD -- in fact, I was talking to my (white, conservative, evangelical) pastor tonight about that, and even he noted that a lot of white Christians don't "get it." Do not assume a Christian "unity" that many of us know doesn't currently exist, and do not assume that if everyone did things your way things will change. Indeed, as someone who has crossed cultures through most of my life, I'd say you're every bit as culture-bound as, and perhaps even more so than, Wright is.

gigantor1231 said...

BD

"As far as I'm concerned, you just stuck your foot in your mouth with that last post. As someone who attends a church that ministers extensively to people in the 'hood."

So since I am not in the "Hood" that somehow takes away from what I say or know. Do you have a medal for serving in the hood BD, you sure seem to ware one when you come and post here!
Just a FYI, I have worked and served in the hood too, I am not there now, God has me serving in a small bedroom community, predominantly populated by white folks, does the color of their skin make them different somehow BD? Is their need any different? By the way, I wont tell you what my color is but I do have four children that are black, does that mean something to you? If it does you are very shallow!
You say that disunity did not exist in the early church. You have to be kidding! Look at the Galatian church or the Corinthian church, Just look at the disciples, both when they were with Jesus and after He ascended, they still had problems. Yet God accomplishes His will in spite of those problems and disunity. And you compare Wright's words to the old testament prophets, I gotta admit I have to laugh at that because they could not be any different. Wright is a man that speaks of his bitterness and the bitterness of many others but he does not speak for Christ. Look BD, to give you the benefit of the doubt I would appreciate it if you could educate me on these O.T. prophets that you compare Wright to, I mean you knowing and reading up on them this should be a piece of cake for you!
As for Martin Luther King Jr., if the demands that he called society to rise to were Biblical and what God called for then no problem. If he addressed sin as the root of all social ills and preached the Gospel as the means to salvation then no problem, but if he missed those elements he failed! I can say this for him though, he was right when he said he looked forward to the day that men were not judged for the color of their skin but for the content of their character, especially if that character is rooted in Christ, character rooted in anyone or anything else is simply death and separation from God...right BD?

"You just demonstrated such "hateful passion" in your response to me, which didn't surprise me in the least. So who's "not being Christ" here?"

Just spoke what I see in your words BD, you are a man that needs Jesus, a sinner, just like me! You seem to be bitter now though BD and all that you can see is black and white, it is all about race and the oppression that the whites have exercised on people of color. You do not see Jesus as the answer, if you do you sure do not communicate it. By the way, could care less what color your pastor is. I hope he teaches the Bible in all it's truth, I have to admit though you don't talk like he does. Are you one of those guys that believe that Jesus did not need to die on the cross and that all one really need do is live the right life style, good works and the willingness to sacrifice truth in order to be united? You say that you somehow hold to reformed orthodox teaching of the word of God.... I have yet to hear you speak anything reformed or orthodox. Whats up with that BD?

BlueDeacon said...

So since I am not in the "Hood" that somehow takes away from what I say or know. Do you have a medal for serving in the hood BD, you sure seem to ware one when you come and post here!

If you did know what went on you likely wouldn't have said what you did. I thus would expect you to be a just little bit more sympathetic to the plight of those who don't have. I'm not directly involved with that myself, but you best believe I've become educated over the years.

By the way, I won't tell you what my color is but I do have four children that are black, does that mean something to you? If it does you are very shallow!

It means that you're in denial. And if you are black and American, it means that you're running from your history. But don't think God doesn't know that.

As for Martin Luther King Jr., if the demands that he called society to rise to were Biblical and what God called for then no problem. If he addressed sin as the root of all social ills and preached the Gospel as the means to salvation then no problem, but if he missed those elements he failed!

He actually did -- I have some of his sermons -- but back in the day he was rejected by "God-fearing, conservative orthodox, Christians with 'good theology'" and is still largely ignored by them today. (In fact, in some cases he was even called a Communist by such people.) This is why "correct theology" can take you only so far. In fact, the Pharisees represent a brilliant example of a theological construct that actually kept people from obeying God! Going further, one of those social ills that King talked about as the result of sin was the refusal of folks in power to release some of that authority so that people have the chance to better their lives -- and he was killed for addressing that. This is why ideological conservatives, who have never fought or worked for the rights of anyone but themselves, don't have the right to speak about the subject of race and racism even in the church -- in the process they're only exposed as the hypocrites they've always been. (I say this as someone whom God burned racist tendencies out of decades ago.)

The real issue here, however, is not what Wright or Obama has said or even "salvation" -- that's a smokescreen. The real issue is that conservative America does not like being told that it's on the wrong track, that it's not the ideal, and that's precisely why you're angry with me right now. Hey, get mad if you want -- but hear this: God is now moving toward a place where people of all races, cultures and classes will live together as family in Jesus' name regardless of any theology we may come up with. And guess what? Your camp will not be in control of that.

You say that you somehow hold to reformed orthodox teaching of the word of God.... I have yet to hear you speak anything reformed or orthodox.

Trust me that I do. However, I've done some study on the history of the Protestant Reformation and come to realize that it was every bit about power politics as (and perhaps even more so than) recovering the historic Christian faith. You think I won't let go of the past? I've seen and read about folks from the Reformed camp who still live as though we're still in 17th-Century Europe and others in the early 1900s!

As I was writing the I got an e-mail from a former pastor of mine, and do you know what the title of his sermon was? "Rev. Wright was not wrong!" Because, if you look more carefully at his consistent theme (and others have done so), Wright did call for Biblical repentance through the cross of Christ. If he didn't passionately love this nation he wouldn't have said what he did. And, as I said before, he will eventually be proven "wright" (but he won't live to see it).

As far as Biblical prophets, I recommend Isaiah (legend holds that he was sawed in two, referenced in Hebrews, for his audacious commentary). My current pastor took over a year to preach through the entire book in 1999-2000.

gigantor1231 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
gigantor1231 said...

BD

You said:

'I thus would expect you to be a just little bit more sympathetic to the plight of those who don't have.'

You are saying things beyond reason BD! What am I not sensitive to? What is it those in the hood do not have? I can think of a lot of things BD, but how about you since you brought it up? Those in the hood need the same things that are needed in the community that I am in, Christ is needed above all and the truth that is in Him, in His word. If you think that they need more things, a higher level of affluence then your focus is way off from what is important to God BD.

'It means that you're in denial. And if you are black and American, it means that you're running from your history. But don't think God doesn't know that.'

If I am black and American I need to remember my history? This is important to God why? My personal history I can see, but black history! I know it but to be honest with you it is just what it is, history, it is the past and my eyes are in the future that He has brought me to liberty for. Racism and oppression is not a issue for me because I refuse to make it a issue, that is all past and will never return to my life again. Others may choose to re introduce it into my life, like you, but my eyes are on the one that matters and that is Christ. So you be a BLACK christian, I will be a Christian!
Thats the bottom line for me BD, I am a blood bought Christian, the Cross of Christ, His death and resurrection are what is central to me, as a matter of fact it is central to the entire world and you but you and the multitudes are blind to it. If you were not you would know that it is the first place you need to go before all of those social problems are truly solved, and oh by the way, they will be solved God's way and not yours, even if you do not like the way He does things, then again if you are truly his you will love His ways! So, you go ahead and try to get back what is yours, you get back what white folks took from you, you can have it, I already have what I need and my goal is to take that to others, my goal is to take them Him because He is the only one that can make all of us free. Perhaps it will mean social justice but perhaps not, if I have Him then I have more than this world could ever offer and what I have will never be taken. As for the unity of 'all faiths,' the only faiths that God will accept are those that have saving faith in Christ, reality is that there is a place reserved for those that do not know Him and worldly oppression will seem like a walk in the park compared to what is given there.
I will pray for you and those whose lives you touch, what you teach is a different gospel and will usher in a deceptive peace, of course I am sure you and yours will get your pound of flesh before that comes around!
Lastly, I am not angry! I do feel sorry for you and those that hold to your world view. Anger would be a waste of time and energy.

BlueDeacon said...

Those in the hood need the same things that are needed in the community that I am in, Christ is needed above all and the truth that is in Him, in His word. If you think that they need more things, a higher level of affluence then your focus is way off from what is important to God ...

There are people in the hood who are spiritually stronger than those in the 'burbs. For that reason alone what you're saying simply isn't necessarily true (see James 2:12). Truth is, many conservatives have always looked down on those that have less than they and accuse -- falsely -- that "they're trying to get what we have," as if they're entitled to it instead of recognizing that God gave those things for the purpose of prospering others.

Racism and oppression is not a issue for me because I refuse to make it a issue, that is all past and will never return to my life again. Others may choose to re introduce it into my life, like you, but my eyes are on the one that matters and that is Christ. So you be a BLACK christian, I will be a Christian!

The reality is that, as long as you are walking on this earth, you have a race/color and that people, even fellow Christians, will relate to you on that basis. God Himself is not color-blind; if He were He would have made us all the same. Yes, I am a black Christian, and because of that He has given me a specific set of responsibilities to His Body; the first time I saw that was when I found myself in an otherwise all-white campus fellowship in Atlanta nearly three decades ago. Because they understand history (Southerners certainly aren't color-blind), members of that group really reached out to me in love.

I will pray for you and those whose lives you touch, what you teach is a different gospel and will usher in a deceptive peace, of course I am sure you and yours will get your pound of flesh before that comes around!

The true gospel is ultimately about reconciliation -- not merely "salvation" but Jesus' followers walking and working together to build "the beloved community" that brings Him glory. By necessity, that means building bridges where there have been breaches. I don't read that from your posts; I read an almost totally individualistic Gospel which would sound like so much nonsense especially to Middle Eastern ears.

Wright has brought up a breach that the church needs to address. Too bad too many so-called "disciples" have chosen to ignore it.

BlueDeacon said...

gigantor123 -- I got my Scripture reference wrong; it should have been James 2:1-11.

Anyway, what you call "bitterness" on my part actually represents a deep passion for justice and righteousness, which is all through the Bible, and it's not limited to one set of people. That's why reconciliation is central to the Christian message.