Friday, February 08, 2008

...the legacy of the new evangelicals


Mike Leake said...


I posted an article on this last week, you can check it out here. What do you think, fair assesment? I tried not to be overly critical, nor slanderous. I hope I was succesful and that Christ is honored.

Detoured By Travel said...

Oh Boy...

I believe that we are created in God's image and His likeness. That means that God does have a sense of humor. He must think it’s important, so who am I to question this? However, that being said I don't think God has a sense of humor about those who choose to be flippant, irreverent, or unrepentant.

We cannot say what may have been edited out of this event in order to make it Comedy Central friendly (whether you call it an interview, a comedy bit, or a witnessing opportunity), so let’s be careful about condemning our brother for appearing that way here.

But if he had any real editorial control over this, in my opinion, his decisions were not made with the best interest of anyone but Rick Warren.

We are called to be aliens here, aren’t we?

ScriptureZealot said...

God doesn't want us to be a doofus in heaven.

That was strange but I would have to say it (the interview) was better than nothing, Mr. Warren handles an interview pretty well and I was surprised Mr. Colbert wasn't as negative as I thought he would be.

I don't know if this is a good place to ask, but something I've been wondering is--how does this life prepare us for heaven? I very much want to know Him better and know that loving Him pleases Him and He will smile on us for it. But in a practical way, if there is such a thing, how does gaining spiritual knowledge and wisdom here prepare us for heaven?

Detoured By Travel said...

Zealot - Here's an article by Keith Green that's pretty much on topic: it has been something that I keep coming back to. It's all about loving Him and longing to be with Him, above all.

You'll need to add the lines together to make a complete link...not sure how to do that here. Hope this helps.

FishHawk said...

Well, that cleared-up the confusion that I have been having about him and the Emergent Movement. That is: unless it was heavily edited by Comedy Central, of course; but in all fairness: I have heard similar things being preached by others who are considered as being quite fundamental.

PDS said...

That was terrible.

Tom said...

Entertaining interview. The only thing missing was the Gospel.

Gage Browning said...

God help us when our God is compared to "Jimmy Buffett".

Don P said...

Well, to extend his metaphor a little, I understand perfectly what he meant about enjoying watching his children sleep; it dovetails with what an old German once told me "you're a nice guy- when you're sleeping!" To be fair, I remember James Dobson once talking about an interview he did for 60 minutes or some such. He was shocked by how brutally the interview was edited, and this was over 20 years ago. The media has gotten worse since then.

PDS said...


It didn't appear there was an editing, but if so, there were opportunities to address the gospel head-on instead of laugh at this idiot.

glip said...

Hello Mike, I read..and liked your assessment. Well done. This interview was pretty lame, and I dont even know who this "Colbert" guy is anyway. You can bet your bottom dollar Driscoll would've boldly preached the Word without fear had he been on.. ;)

Rich Kirkpatrick said...

Jesus would have been on that show and been much funnier than Warren. But what Warren said about fundamentalism is spot on.

Brian said...

Rick Warren was pretty brutalized in that one, but seriously... why we gotta hate on our brother? Better than withdrawing and saying nothing. He said he believed the Bible and that there was eternity waiting and that Jesus would enter your heart if you asked him. He probably, just by his winsome and respectful attitude, undid the presumptions of a lot of people who have been scarred by rough connections with Christianity.

Don't you realize that the outside world thinks we're pedophiles and sex offenders, self righteous bigots and what not? In seminary, my cousin asked me if there were a lot of gay people there. Rick Warren, whether he has problems or not (which I'm sure he'd say he did), AT LEAST got people to say, "Hey there's a Christian that treats me with respect."

PDS said...

Brian -- please. A Christian can show respect and still share the gospel. These are not mutually exclusive ideas.

Rick Warren's performance about made me throw up.

gigantor1231 said...


Isn't it enough that Rick Warren has essentially elevated himself to the level of Christ by his actions and words. In my opinion Rick is one of the heretics of our day and he seems to be poised to usher in the anti-Christ if not at least the spirit of the anti-Christ. If you can not see this then study his history and look at the progression of who Rick has become, from a leader of a humble apartment Bible study to liberal mega church leader who promotes plurality and union with those that are worshipers of idols, ibid. his most recent endorsement of 'a common word between us and you.'

let alone his willingness to link arms with the most famous and outspoken of liberal anti-Christ individuals such as the Clintons, Obama, the United Nations!

Open your eyes everyone, Warren is not a man after the heart of God, he is a man after public acceptance!

gigantor1231 said...


When I pen my comments I am not certain who to address them to so it is inevitably you! I do not mean to make it sound like you hold to the garbage Warren produces, forgive me if I have made it sound that way. I suppose that I should address my comments to 'All'.

Brian said...

I never said a Christian could not show respect and share the Gospel. In fact Jesus shows people a lot of respect in the Gospel accounts, and you can see respect in the way Paul did it too.

But Warren acted winsomely to the crowds there. But he did not back down about the Scriptures. I think he did a good job refuting, by his character, a lot of the predispositions that most non Christian people have to Christians - that we're immoral hypocrites. Did he do it perfectly? No. But I can't stand to see my brothers here just slamming him when he is trying to show them a Christian isn't necessarily an angry judgmental guy. That's not what Christianity is about!!!

Brian said...

We have to remember that there are a lot of cultural differences between different parts of the United States. In the Northeast and Northwest we're going to see completely different methods of evangelism than in the south, and in Europe, again, different methods. I was active in Crusade in college and we had a great ministry, and I love crusade because they share the Gospel outright. But did you know that Crusade spent 30 years in Germany without any converts! Why? Because their methods were irrelevant to a post Christian culture.

Warren's method is going to reach post Christian cultures because he doesn't come at these unbelievers with a load of Christian jargon that they can't understand, and most of that jargon they associate with things distinctly non-Christian, like pedophilic priests and angry self righteous bigots. That's what innovative thinkers like Driscoll and Keller are doing, and it's spreading the kingdom to places where it has been irrelevant. Warren is not perfect, but he is doing what he can to win some.

Detoured By Travel said...

Brian -

Thanks for sharing. While I don't necessarily agree with you about how Rick presented things, I do agree with you about running him into the ground here. We don't know the whole picture here...we don't know the whole of what was said or what may have been EDITED in this clip.

However, there IS such a thing as witnessing for the right side. I have attached a link to an article from Charles Finney here that was paraphrased by Keith/Melody Green. It has helped me with some perspective.

The bottom line for me (and I believe for God) right now is the SOUL. Is the soul saved and is the name written in the Lamb's Book of Life? Has the soul started down a life that has been changed and will that soul look only to Christ as Lord?

That's it...there can be only one Way and that way is Jesus. But I don't believe that presenting God as flippant and less than holy is witnessing for the right side.

Love you brother...keep following Him and trusting Him only.

P.S. Let me know what you think about the article.

Article Address:

The Seeking Disciple said...

Rick had the chance to confront Stephen and the crowd with the Law of God (1 Timothy 1:8-10) and yet he goes on about God's love which can not be mixed from God's just wrath against our sins (Isaiah 64:6; Romans 3:10-20).

Let us pray for Rick Warren.

Brian said...

Thanks for the kind post :)

I'm all about preaching the Law of God, but do you want to do that with 4 minutes? What is the Law of God if you don't have grace with it? - it's condemnation. And especially in the context of a late night talk show interview, can you really present the Law of God and the grace of God in Jesus clearly with Stephen Colbert trying to brutalize you as hard as he can? Given the limitations, I don't see how Warren can be faulted there.

Rick Warren could have been more reverent, that's a pretty valid analysis of his faults.

gigantor1231 said...

Brian, Detoured and Anyone who validates Rick Warren

You folks are amazing that you validate Rick Warren at all! Can't you see that he is a false teacher? Are you all that blind or are you just afraid to say it? The two examples that I left are just some of the things that he is leading other believers into and that is just the tip of the iceberg, he has his peace plan, his aids awareness conference, his eisegesic purpose driven movement and the list goes on, lets not leave out Rupert Murdoch's Fox T.V. Network anointing him as the modern day messiah, it all has the mark of the father of lies all over it.
So, whats up with that? Where are your heads? Do you read your Bibles, do you see the signs? There ought to be red flags everywhere on this one!

Detoured By Travel said...

Gig - Get a clue. I have not supported Rick in this situation whatsoever. My only point here is that we should not rush to condemn our brother as we do not have the WHOLE story.

We are called to be LIGHTS unto this world...aliens, foreigners, strangers in a strange land. This interview seemed like a lot of effort to blend in with the world to me. My guess...and it is ONLY a guess is that he indeed acted flippantly and irreverently toward my Holy God and that we probably saw the essence of the interview.

However, PLEASE keep in mind that the majority of this interview was probably heavily edited to be Comedy Central friendly.

Let's pray for Rick Warren. Let's pray for each other...let's pray that we will be led by His Spirit in all we say and do in this matter.

gigantor1231 said...


Hmmmm, correct me if I am wrong but when there are false teachers that are leading multitudes astray aren't we supposed to sound a alarm? I have followed and researched much of what R.W. has done in the past, I left you some examples to look into. I have prayed for Rick as well as I have spoken with one of the pastors on his ministry team at saddleback, I think that 'false teacher' is probably a appropriate title for him, even if he is a brother, the boy is bearing bad fruit, demonic fruit! Do Christians produce this kind of fruit detoured?
Let's just look at this most recent episode with Colbert. Rick says that God is happy with people when they do what they made them to do. Now is this true... example, God created pharaoh for a purpose, that He might be glorified through him. Pharaoh was a man who chose to do evil to God's people, he was created to be a vessel for God's wrath. Does that sound like someone God was happy with because he fulfilled the purpose he was created for? The un redeemed are the same way, all of their works invoke the wrath of God because they vessels created for the wrath of God. We were once vessels of God's wrath, He was not happy with us! Rick presents a false Gospel to a dieing world and in doing what he does he doubley damns the unregenerate! Get a clue Detoured, open your eyes and ears.
P.S. Lose Finney, his theories on salvation were arminianist to the core and his methods relied solely on the manipulation of men to bring out a confession, read this;

Finney on the Anxious Seat;

“The church has always felt it
necessary to have something of this
kind to answer this very purpose.
In the days of the apostles,
baptism answered this purpose. The
gospel was preached to the people, and
then all those who were willing to be on
the side of Christ, were called out to be
It held the place that the anxious
seat does now as a public manifestation
of their determination to be Christians.”
Charles Grandison Finney (1792-1875)

Martyn Lloyd Jones - On the Altar Call

We are to preach the Word, and if we do it properly, there will be a call to a decision that comes in the message, and then we leave it to the Spirit to act upon people
Early in the 1970s Dr Martyn Lloyd-Jones was the speaker at a ministers' conference in the USA and at a question session was asked the following question:
Q During recent years, especially in England, among evangelicals of the Reformed faith, there has been a rising criticism of the invitation system as used by Billy Graham and others. Does Scripture justify the use of such public invitations or not?
A. Well, it is difficult to answer this in a brief compass without being misunderstood. Let me answer it like this: The history of this invitation system is one with which you people ought to be more familiar than anyone else, because it began in America. It began in the 1820s; the real originator of it was Charles G. Finney. It led to a great controversy. Asahel Nettleton, a great Calvinist and successful evangelist, never issued an "altar call" nor asked people to come to the "anxious seat." These new methods in the 182Os and were condemned for many reasons by all who took the Reformed position.
One reason is that there is no evidence that this was done in New Testament times, because then they trusted to the power of the Spirit. Peter preaching on the Day of Pentecost under the power of the Spirit, for instance, had no need to call people forward in decision because, as you remember, the people were so moved and affected by the power of the Word and Spirit that they actually interrupted the preacher, crying out, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" That has been the traditional Reformed attitude towards this particular matter. The moment you begin to introduce this other element, you are bringing a psychological element. The invitation should be in the message. We believe the Spirit applies the message, so we trust in the power of the Spirit. I personally agree with what has been said in the question. I have never called people forward at the end for this reason; there is a grave danger of people coming forward before they are ready to come forward. We do believe in the work of the Spirit, that He convicts and converts, and He will do His work. There is a danger in bringing people to a "birth," as it were, before they are ready for it.
The Puritans in particular were afraid of what they would call "a temporary faith" or "a false profession." There was a great Puritan, Thomas Shepard, who published a famous series of sermons on The Ten Virgins. The great point of that book was to deal with this problem of a false profession. The foolish virgins thought they were all right. This is a very great danger.
I can sum it up by putting it like this: I feel that this pressure which is put upon people to come forward in decision ultimately is due to a lack of faith in the work and operation of the Holy Spirit. We are to preach the Word, and if we do it properly, there will be a call to a decision that comes in the message, and then we leave it to the Spirit to act upon people. And of course He does. Some may come immediately at the close of the service to see the minister. I think there should always be an indication that the minister will be glad to see anybody who wants to put questions to him or wants further help. But that is a very different thing from putting pressure upon people to come forward. I feel it is wrong to put pressure directly on the will. The order in Scripture seems to be this - the truth is presented to the mind, which moves the heart, and that in turn moves the will.

By D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones

Brian said...

I'm "amazing." I'm blind or afraid. I don't read my Bible.

You know, I didn't think this was about me, but about Rick Warren. I'm sad and surprised it has come to name calling. I didn't say he was perfect and I didn't even start to validate any of those things you wrote about because I don't know what they are.

I'm referring to the way Christians are supposed to treat people - with respect. You have not treated me with respect. You have not treated Warren with respect and definitely not Detoured by travel with respect. I'm saying Warren did that well, and that he might make people think twice about what they previously considered Christians to be.

I would never want to go to your religion though. You're angry and you didn't read anything that detoured wrote and straw manned mine. I have no desire for interaction or association with that kind of person.

gigantor1231 said...


I do not know who you are or what your spiritual background is, I am sorry my words are hard but Rick Warren has his plans, and his teachings and they are not God's. Rick is a false teacher and I am letting you know. Yes the words that I speak are hard, and I speak that way because it appears that the majority of you are asleep. You think Rick Warren is doing something, well I suppose there are a lot of false teachers who have done something 'good', Ghandi is probably a good example and in doing his brand of good he has lead probably of 100's of millions into hell! What Rick Warren is doing is no different, just a different suit of clothes and a different method.
If you do not want to look into the facts behind R.W., and they are voluminous, then my prayers are with you!

gigantor1231 said...


Listen to Steve or James White, try John MaCarthur or Alistair Begg, real men of God, but run from the teachers you are sitting under now. Truth is not legalism and, light can hurt the eyes of the blind but in the end they can see where they are going and avoid the pit that all of the other blind men are being lead into!

Brian said...

My spiritual background is Christianity. I am a reformed Evangelical, and I love the Word. I read koine greek.

I am only trying to make a single point. That we must act with respect and treat with dignity outsiders. "I don't want anything to do with your religion" is trying to make a point - that if we act so angry and judgmental we won't even get a hearing by today's unregenerate.

For the last time I never said that Rick Warren was a great teacher or anything. Why do you have this in your head? My point is that by treating people with respect he is practicing a valid aspect of Christianity. That's all.

Detoured By Travel said...

Gig - Love you brother. I ask you to forgive me for telling you to "get a clue," that was unnecessary. I also ask others who read this blog regularly to forgive me as well.

But Gig, please...this is not a debate about the "mourner's bench" or the "anxious seat" or Calvinistic views so I'm not going to get into that with you. It's not worth it. The article I sent Brian's way, while it was originally written by Charles Finney is not even about those topics.

I'm not sure that advising Brian to "get out" from under the teaching he is currently under is wisdom. You admitted that you don't know him or his background, so to judge his situation so quickly doesn't sit right.

Brian - Keep on seeking and serving Jesus. Stay in His Word. Stay in regular prayer and keep that first person relationship with Him. It is very important to fight for truth and personal holiness, but we must make sure that we start with our own lives. Remember that how people will know we belong to Jesus is dependent on their being able to see how much we love one another.

His way is to be our only way, His truth is to be our only truth, and His life is to be our only life.

Blessings to you all.

SJ Camp said...

"I am only trying to make a single point. That we must act with respect and treat with dignity outsiders."

I fully agree. This is the essence of 1 Peter 3:15 that we are to give a reason for the hope that is within us with reverence and respect. Two qualities when proclaiming the gospel to outsiders.

But here is the double-edged sword. To those within the church; or those who profess to be Christians and are propagating unsound doctrine we are to refute (Titus 1:9). We must always speak the truth in love--but speak the truth we must.

Rick Warren is not the antichrist. But there are real concerns over what he represents in the name of the Lord as being biblical Christianity. That is why I posted this video. It isn't my commentary on him; it is just him really unveiling how he thinks we are to relate the truth claims of Scripture to unregenerate people especially in the media.

Rick misrepresented the character of God to Colbert in this video and that is the concern here.

gigantor1231 said...

Brian and Detoured

First let me address this, I followed the links to the blogs attached to Brian's name and read some of the doctrine that is being espoused in the class rooms of Covenant Theological. It is typical of many institutions to open their arms to anyone that is 'Scholarly' thinking that, somehow, is a indicator that they are Godly, I saw some things with regards to preaching the Gospel to the lost that contradicts the way Christ approached those that He ministered to, namely that He addressed them where they were and if that meant confronting their sin then He did it.
I should not have been so knee jerk, OK way overboard, in my response and I ask that you would forgive me.
As for Rick Warren, you both seem to hold to the erroneous thought that direct confrontation and hard words are unloving, sometimes though what is said needs to be loud and hard because of the degree of danger that is presented and with R.W. it is a high degree of danger, as Steve said 'he is not the anti Christ' but he certainly is making the path straight for him or them!
As for respect for outsiders, I have no problem with respect for outsiders at all, it is when I see false teachers creeping in to prey on the weak or undermine the truth that I become aggressive, this is a spiritual life and death battle that is going on here and I am not going to sit back and respect heretical teaching or those that hold to idolatrous lies and attempt to inculcate them into the body of Christ. As for the number of opportunities that are presented to me to dialog over false teaching, I am not to concerned about that, I try to speak to the heart of the issue in truth and , yes , love, contrary to the opinion of some. I have found that it is not hard words that drive folks away, it is the truth that does it, people love the dark and hate light, the light of the simple Gospel is enough to drive people from the room as well as it is the power of God to salvation.
more later

Detoured By Travel said...

SJ/Gig -

I guess sometimes people react without reading the whole post...I've done it, but it seems to pervade here on this topic. Not the point though...

My whole point here has NOT been to support RW. As I've said before, I believe that while we may not be seeing the whole interview that we saw the essence of it and that the essense of it was heretical and irreverant towards my Holy God.

My whole point here HAS been to love and encourage a brother (Brian) in his personal relationship with Christ. That's it. Period.

He alone is the One that I seek to please, and that is the direction I have been going with our brother. If others are displeased, as long as I'm not acting as a heretic myself I cannot be concerned with that.

Hebrews 13:1

Brian said...

I'm not holding anything against any of my brothers here, so consider yourself forgiven and if I offended you please forgive me too.

My professors at CTS are some of the most Godly and Word honoring people I've ever met. You should see them weep over their sin and over God's grace. I wish I had a heart as big as theirs.

gigantor1231 said...


It is wonderful that your professors display such humility but what has come into to question for me is what you have posted on your blog. For instance, your professor who allows the homosexual to come into his home and sleep together, I mean you have to be joking! This should not be in question, homosexuality is a abomination to God in every instance, Romans 1 says that it is a consequence of the deliberate suppression of the truth Romans 1: 18-32, they worship the created rather than the creator and God turned them over to their own bent passions. You are right in not allowing someone come into your home and deliberately sin. I question the qualifications of the man that would teach such a thing. Sounds like some real post modern bilge, perhaps he is lined up with Brian McLaren's five year moratorium on how to treat the homosexual community, another heretical false teaching by a man portraying himself as a servant of Christ, it appears that he too represents the father of lies.
I applaud you for desiring to know love, it is the highest way that you can pursue. I would pray for you that God would balance your life in truth and discernment, that you would understand the difference between judgment and conviction. Right judgment simply states the facts and presents what the outcome could be, conviction is the final verdict handed down and that is reserved for God.
I could go on with regards to some other things that I see in what you have written but I will not burden you with that. I hope you hold true to what is the truth and you are not carried along by every wind of doctrine, trust your Bible, trust Jesus, be a Berean!

Detoured By Travel said...

Gig - Thanks for this...I am in complete agreement with you here. Here's my response on his blog:

--- snip ---

Brian - It's interesting that we speak of love here. Jesus said that we could have no greater love than to lay down our life for our brothers and sisters. What does that mean exactly?

Which is the greater love, to see sin, say nothing and allow that sin to continue on unto death (and hell) OR to love the sinner so much that you cannot bear to see that sin drag the person down to death and to speak out against that sin?

If you're concerned with anything less than the soul then you become more like the former. If the salvation of the soul and its redemption back to God are foremost in your heart, then it will be the latter.

Which view would Jesus take? This is why I believe that we must view every soul as infinitely precious to God. The only thing that will ultimately matter to God about our question 100 years from today is whose name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Love the sinner...hate the sin.

--- snip ---

gigantor1231 said...

Detoured and Brian

I highly recommend MaCarthur's book "The Gospel According to Jesus" not to mention just following Christ through the Gospels to see how He confronts people. He always took them to the place where they could see exactly what they needed to see with circumspection, He truly is the master. Jesus has sent us His spirit that we might be able to do greater works!

Brian said...

We're off topic, but...

Yeah it was pretty unheard of to me too. But how did the Jesus act towards those in sin in the Gospels? He ate with them, and that is an act of extreme intimacy and acceptance in that culture, very similar to letting homosexual people stay in your house.

He doesn't think homosexuality is OK. In fact, in his book "The Heart of Evangelism" by Jerram Barrs, he explains that it is necessary to confront people's sin too. He's a fascinating professor and comes from England.

gigantor1231 said...


You can not compare eating together and allowing to willingly put someone in a position of committing sexual Immorality, it is apples and oranges! Obviously we can debate this but homosexuality is a gross sin, it is a abomination to God, eating with others does not rise to this level.

Brian said...

With all due respect, I don't think God hates homosexuality more than he does materialism or anything other sin. And I didn't think it was our job to judge those outside the church either. Jesus doesn't take away all the "rich young ruler"'s money away, does he? Would you accuse Jesus of putting him in a position to sin? Good gracious - that type of logic would have us doing lots of stuff to keep people from sinning.

1 Cor 5 12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

gigantor1231 said...


With all due respect, you need to understand that you should not hang your doctrinal position on one scriptural peg!

While it is true that we do not judge those out side the church, it is equally true that when we asses the condition of a individual via the fruit that they produce we will know how we should respond to them. As Christ ministered to the woman at the well John 4, or to Nichodemus in John 3 or the rich young ruler Mt. 19 and Mk. 10, He proclaimed the unadulterated truth to them, this included their depravity, He exposed them to who they really were and in so doing He exposed their dire need! With regards to the homosexual/sinner, it is important that we expose them to their dire need as well because they are blind to it, it makes no difference that you think they know, you need to let them know because you know the truth. One way to do this is to let them know that while they can practice their sin in their world, it is not acceptable in yours. Say for instance in your home, you do not encourage them to sleep together in order to bring them comfort but you let them know that you have standards that God has placed in your life! Is this harsh or unfriendly, no, not at all, it is the standard that God has placed in our lives, it is not a judgment, it does not condemn or draw a final verdict as to salvation but it is pure truth.
Brian, you do not have to hold to this standard, you can hold to any weak watered down standard that you want, but you need to understand that Jesus never made sinners comfortable with their sin, as a matter of fact his mere presence had the exact opposite effect, No, Jesus never would have condoned to men sleeping together in his presence and to insinuate that He would is simply a perversion of the truth and the Character of God, it is a liberal mind set that has crept into many churches and many individual Christians lives. Jesus did not have to take the rich young rulers money from him to convey what He wanted, as you see he went away sad. Why? Because he was unwilling to follow Jesus! It is no different for the homosexual/sinner, Jesus does not accept their sin and He expects them to turn from it and follow Him. We should ask no less of those that we minister to, repent and follow Him, allowing someone to sleep together and be immoral under your own roof does not convey this truth, however it does convey a low regard for the Word of God and His Holiness.

Brian said...

I think the Pharisees in Jesus' day probably thought that Jesus was condoning sinful behavior too.

I live with two non Christian friends from high school. They drink beer to the point of drunkenness, and I sit and talk with them. They know I don't approve, but I don't forbid their action. And my presence does make them uncomfortable.

It's the same with a homosexual person staying in your house. They know you don't approve - but you treat them with respect and dignity anyway.

gigantor1231 said...


As I said, Jesus did not make them feel comfortable in their sin! Yes, He did minister to them, He told them the truth and then let them sort out the conviction, it was still the Father that drew men to Him! He did not live with them, neither did any of the Apostles. The mandate to live separately is very clear, we are in the world but not of the world, Christ's prayer is in respect to this in John 17, He asks that we remain in the world and be protected from the evil one. Also, Paul makes it clear that we are not to be ἑτεροζυγέω 2 Cor. 6:14-18 (the obvious counterpart and balance to 1 Cor. 5: 9-13), look it up and parse it out any way that you like but what it is talking about is being associated with someone in such a way that your labor is associated with them, you are comrades. It sounds to me like that is what you are talking about when living with those that are in all out rebellion against God, you live with them and among them while they shake their fists at Him and you condone it by association. It is the same with the one that chooses to be in immorality of what ever color or type you want to choose, you live with them in the midst of their rebellion and condone it by your association. Does it even grieve you or are you so used to it that you just see them as wayward children.
I could understand if it was a situation where you were providing a refuge for those that were trying to escape these things, in a normal scenario like that you offer refuge with guidelines that protect you and the ones seeking refuge, but if you sit there and watch them while they do it then you are just a unwilling participant, the world calls it being codependent and that sounds like what you are doing (see 1 Cor. 6: 12-20 you need to flee it even when someone else is acting it out, that is immorality, also see 1 Cor. 10).
Now, since you seem to think that I am some sort of Pharisee, via your back handed little comment, let me say this, not that I feel compelled to display any qualification as if I were displaying some type of ribbons or trophy, it is all σκύβαλον in comparison to knowing Him. I am 47 years old, I have been a Christian for 31 of those 47 years. I am not degreed, I have a bachelor of nothing and a master of squat, perhaps someday I will have a degree in mathematics but what ever I have it will all be for his glory and not my own. As a youth I did some mission work with YWAM on the mean streets of LA and various locations in the western united states. I love those that Christ has died for and love to take them the truth and see them come to him, just as I did 31 years ago. My hands are his hands and they reach out to the lost with compassion, void of condemnation yet cloaked in the truth, and that truth is that all that come to him are sinners, infinitely far from him, yet Christ is there, for them, to bridge that infinite expanse, I willingly give them the Gospel, what they need to be saved from and what they are chosen to be saved to.
As a older married man I have had 12 foster children come through my home, hoping that they perhaps somehow were impacted by the word of God when they lived with us. As of Feb. of 2002 my wife died of ovarian cancer and I have three young girls that I am raising on my own in the way of Christ, they are my angels and many times they are the ones that save me. I teach a bible class every Sunday in the midst of my small bible family, it is the greatest honor of my life, Is. 66: 2 is the passage that I hold to, I want that man to be me.
That being said, I know that I do not have a masters in divinity, nor am I some brilliant theologian that you have sat under or subscribe to. Perhaps some of the words that I have spoken can be of use to one of such vast experience as yourself.

gigantor1231 said...


Since you see that exposing the sinner to their sin as being judgmental, I just got done speaking to a friend who has had to lay down the law to her gay son. She has had to confront him with the truth! Is she being Christ like to him or is she just another one of us pharisees?

Brian said...

We're speaking two different languages here. You don't get what I'm saying at all and are not listening to me. I have heard what you say.

I'm sorry about your wife, and glad that you have three girls and have done so much outreach.

I am not going to present my point again, because you don't care. You haven't ever approached what I am trying to say with any sort of respect or understanding, arguing with every point. I would hope you would at least be glad that I live with and pray for my non Christian roomates every day, and you should know I am sorely grieved and hope for their salvation. And I do talk to them about sin. You need to learn to communicate!

I am praying for your ministry now, and I'm not going to talk to you again because it doesn't seem to be edifying.


gigantor1231 said...


You are very predictable, your response is typical of a post modern emergent disciple. If I have some how insulted you please forgive me but to be quite frank you need to develop a thicker skin. Also, you should look to the word of God to support what you are doing, I have yet to see you go to scripture and use it as a support for the direction you have taken, also typical of pomo's since they only see the word of God as literature and their experience is what is preeminent. Sorry you have to run, you seem to be a descent guy.