"We [Christians]
sin against homosexuals
by insisting that
sexual temptation
and attraction
are predominately chosen."
sin against homosexuals
by insisting that
sexual temptation
and attraction
are predominately chosen."
Let me know your thoughts...
The answer coming up a bit later.
Steve
90 comments:
Dr. Mohler
Is there a prize?
Man you are too good. How did you know that?
I question Dr Mohler, and wonder if he thinks there will be a time that we find a gene for sin in general and if so could we fix it so that man no longer needs a Saviour? Obviously, he would not go this far, yet one wonders how far down the slippery slope he is willing to travel.
Um, because I read the article it came from and I remembered the sentence because, well, I didn't quite understand what it meant, and if it meant what I thought, it didn't sound like something he would say.
He just wrote about it. Right? I mean... I'm not trying to make you feel bad or anything.
Ok, I'll guess Jay Leno, to make you feel better.
Also, Challies reminded us a few hours ago ;-)
Kelly - now that's a very disturbing thought.
Yes, but Kelly, they're not talking about changing behavior, just orientation.
I was sitting on this story since last week. Al is a friend and wanted to see what else he would say...
As much as I appreciate his ministry; I say this with love in my heart for my brother--he is just dead wrong on this.
What kind of genes will they find next? A pride gene; an adultery gene; a cocaine gene; an alcoholic gene; a gossip gene; a blogging gene; blah, blah, blah...
We are all born with a "sin gene" - having a nature completely corrupt (Roms. 3:10-18; Eph. 2:1-3).
I will be posting a bit later on this tonight.
Campi
Blogging gene. Ha.
Actually, I just remembered reading this column in our local newspaper along those lines. You want to talk about scary.
(Keep in mind this guy's an atheist.)
Looking carefully at Mohler's comment, I'd have to say I agree.
To say that people choose who they are attracted to is presumptuous. Only God can know the heart.
Mohler is not saying that the activity is appropriate. He is saying that it's sinful to judge someone's motives.
I'd be interested in what someone who has been down this road - like Dennis Jernigan - would say about this.
For those who contend that God would never create anyone with sexual confusion, I would ask them what they think about transgendered people.
I certainly think it's possible - if fact probable - that many homosexuals are naturally attracted to the same sex.
John:
Do you believe John that this is a genetic issue or sin issue? Is someone "prewired" to be gay genetically? IOW, God created them homosexual, but then they have to just "live with it"; never act on it; and curtail it?
I don't think Al was saying "it's sinful to judge someone's motives" in this quote. I take him at his words and he chooses them carefully.
He is saying we sin against homosexuals by insisting that sexual temptation and attraction are predominately chosen.
Sin is a choice, John, for all of us -- it is not genetic or even "correctable" genetically. If it is genetic, then I'm not responsible. Am I to blame for having green eyes, blonde hair, being 5'11"; or right handed? Those are determined by genetic code too.
But our sin choices?
When it comes to lifestyle choices; sin issues; I am sorry friend, it is always a choice.
I like Dr. Mohler but this is part of his 20%
Steve,
For a man to be attracted to another man is not a sin - it is tempatation. For a man to act on it - that's when sin happens.
What a see in Mohler's quote is that we sin by judging someone's motives. We insist that their attraction to the same sex is their choice. We insist that they are choosing to desire somethign sinful.
What do we know about it? Unless we have those urges, we really can't understand where they're coming from. This is where I believe Christians need to have grace.
You asked: Is someone "prewired" to be gay genetically?
I would say probably yes. People are genetically predisposed to be alcoholics, mentally ill, have heart disease or get fat. I don't see why sexuality would be any different.
Let me ask you - what makes homosexuality any worse than any other sin that we struggle with. Many believers tell gays that they can't come to God without rejecting the lifestyle and that if they struggle with it, they're not really saved.
But I struggle with pride and gluttony. I'm sure you struggle with sins as well. Why is it that we believers target homosexuality and put so much emphasis on it? Isn't it possible for someone to realize that the lifestyle is sinful- confess and repent, yet still struggle with it for the rest of their life?
I hate to double post but it seems that Dr Moore stated today, while hosting Dr Mohler's program, that Dr Mohler will be clarifying his position soon. I for one will simply wait until clarification comes to proceed any further.
BTW Steve if you like things like your "who said this" you should drop over to the riddleblog from time to time. Dr Riddlebarger posts them quite frequently.
Thanks to Dr. Everett Berry of the Criswell College for pointing out Dr. Moore's comment.
Steve,
I think a great person to ask this question to is Dennis Jernigan. I'm sure you've heard of him. He's a musician and poet who has written some of the great modern praise songs (All in All, I Belong to Jesus, We Will Worship the Lamb of Glory, etc).
He was a homosexual as a young man and God delivered him from that lifestyle.I would listen to his answer on this. Frankly, I'm tired of having in-house debates with a bunch of straight people about something than none of us can truly understand.
Here's his testimony: http://www.dennisjernigan.com/About/DJsTestimony/tabid/85/Default.aspx
John,
you wrote "For a man to be attracted to another man is not a sin - it is tempatation. For a man to act on it - that's when sin happens."
I couldn't disagree more with that, and the Scriptures don't back up your position either.
Please consider carefully Jesus' words in Matthew 5 when He said that even a man who looks at a woman with lust has already sinned inwardly. Clearly this would apply to men lusting (you used the word "attracted") after other men as well.
Of course there is a type of non-lustful attraction we have toward people, a sense of kinship or likeness that we enjoy with likeminded people (both male and female)that certainly wouldn't be considered sinful, but the attraction you're referring to is the lustful sort (hence, "acting on it" would lead to a physical relationsip, would it not?). Jesus's words pierce straight TO the heart on this one.
Just something to think about.
Carla:
Excellent quote from Matthew. That's it. All sin is a heart issue--not a genetic one. The wrath of God is not coming because of genetic predisposition; but because of sin.
Thank you.
John:
Could you define sin for me? And could you pleases define it biblically?
All sin is choice based upon nature. Genetics (race, color of eyes, sound of the voice, hair, etc.) are not sin issues. The wrath of God is not coming because of our DNA and genetic imaging.
No one here is singling out homosexuality as a unique sin worthy of more scorn than others. I have worked with people with AIDS since 1988 and that bogus charge just won't stick here man.
But Dr. Mohler has made it the issue in trying to link some sort of genetic tie to sexual orientation based upon the Fall.
THAT is the issue here. I say there is no claim to his proposition. In fact, his claim is without merit medically and most important, biblically.
As a Christian leader and brother I deeply respect and appreciate in the gospel, it is irresponsible for him to make such a farfetched assertion even going to the point of saying that this "discovery" can be invaluable to pastors in understanding further what causes someone to be homosexual and how to minister to them.
And what is this based upon? Some inconclusive medical testing on sheep.
This is nothing-less than trying to pull the wool over someone eyes...
Here is true and trustworthy conclusive "research" on the human sin condition that plagues mankind. No genetic coding needed to make determination -- it is common to all:
Rom. 3:10 as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
Rom. 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
Rom. 3:12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”
Rom. 3:13 “THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”
“THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;
Rom. 3:14 “WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”;
Rom. 3:15 “THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
Rom. 3:16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
Rom. 3:17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.”
Rom. 3:18 “THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”
So you believe that all gay people choose to desire the same sex? They just wake up one day and say "I think I'll lust after strange flesh!" That seems a bit far-flung.
You also contend that if someone has "feelings" towards the same sex, but never act on it or dwell on it - they are sinning? Even though they're resisting those tempations?
Carla,
Were you physically attracted to the opposite sex before you were married? Did you DECIDE you were going to want to be attracted to men? And did you also decide what TYPE of man (tall, dark & handsome) you'd like?
My point is that to some extent, our sexual desires are in place at birth. Why is it not possible that some people are born with an attraction to the same sex? Where does scripture say that's impossible?
I agree that sin is a choice. Sin is missing the mark. It's anything short of perfection. It's also the natural state of every human - believer or not.
When we're saved, it's not like we're no longer filthy sinners. It's Christ's sinlessness that saves us - not ours.
And it's clear that temptation and sin are two different things. You can be tempted, but not sin.
Many times, I want to be selfish. Sometimes I act on that temptation and it is sin. Other times, I resist.
Also, there is conspicuous silence on my question about trans-gendered people (people with both sets of reproductive organs). What is God doing there? If God doesn't create any mistakes, how do you explain that?
Steve,
As for singling out this one sin - I respectfully submit that I would never see a similar post about greed or gluttony.
It's ironic to me that many of my fundamentalist friends who are the most vocal on these issues are completely silent on sins that apply to them - selfishness, gluttony, a lack of concern for the needy and the lost.
I count myself in that group. It's easy for me to harp on sins that I don't struggle with. But unless I've walked a mile in someone's shoes, I think I should walk very carefully.
So Al Mohler writes an article about gaybies. Babies who are gay. Well what is wrong with that? I was born with a desire to sin, as is everyone else. What surprises me is not that people are gay, or are thieves, or are gossips or gluttons. What surprises me is that anyone does anything good at all.
Thank God that Jesus died and rose again to rescue us from the eternal consequences of the way we were born.
I think that one of the problems is that of what we see being exalted in the world and the media. Right now this what it is. I don't see marches for liars & gossips rights. We aren't being accused of being gluttonophobes by the world. This situation is a product of the sexocentric culture in which we live. Also, when your identity is based on your actions, when those actions are either challenged or said to be immoral, the reactions fly. The media is in a tizzy over what Gen. Pace said a few days ago. People just don't identify themselves as liars, gluttons or gossips, so the reactions to these sins are not the same.
John, you asked: "You also contend that if someone has "feelings" towards the same sex, but never act on it or dwell on it - they are sinning? Even though they're resisting those tempations?"
It's not about what I contend, or Steve contends or what anyone else contends, but what Jesus actually said. Can you argue with His words in Matthew when He said that a lusting man has already sinned in his heart?
John, I was born spiritually dead and with a desire to sin, just like everyone else on this planet. My desire to sin had everything to do with my fallen spiritual nature, not my physical genetics.
The old "but some people are born gay!" is nothing more than an excuse to blame God (and many do) for whatever they feel like blaming Him for on any given day, and/or to make an effort to justify such a lifestyle, i.e., "I was born this way, so it can't be sinful like you narrowminded fundies claim it is.
I don't pretend to fully understand the genetics of all this, but I do know that the Bible says it's an abomination before God, that God's wrath will be poured out on those that remain in sin (no matter what kind), and that any effort to make an excuse for it, is often a veiled denial of the authority of Scripture to persue a life of sin & feel better about it.
Just thinking outloud here.
SDG,
Carla
Jesus never directly addressed homosexuality. The comments in Matthew were very specifically to a heterosexual desire.
Where do you get the idea that people cannot be born gay? People are born with all kinds of issues. There are babies born joined at the head. Some are born with their hearts outside their bodies. Some have both sets of reproductive organs (again - nobody is responding to this...)
So, why can't people be born gay?
You can find Dennis Jernigan's testimony HERE... and I believe he would tell you that he bought into a lie and that he chose to believe this lie to justify his sin. Something we all tend to do even as believers. But by the grace of God alone we are clothed in the imputed righteousness of Christ. ALL sin is perverted in light of God's holiness.
4given -
Those are great comments, but it's not the point of Mohler's comments. He is saying that it is sinful for people to insist that homosexual desires are chosen and not inborn.
That's the point - whether people choose to have homosexual desires or if they just have them "naturally".
People born gay? no.
People born sinners? yes.
"[man] is obviously under a curse for something, from the beginning of his life. Witness the native depravity of infants, and their inheritance of woe and death. Now, either man was tried and fell in Adam, or he has been condemned without trial. He is either under the curse...for Adam's guilt, or for no guilt at all. Judge which is most honorable to God, a doctrine which, although a profound mystery, represents Him as giving man an equitable and most favored probation in his federal head; or that which makes God condemn him untried, and even before he exists"--Dr. R.L. Dabney.
If there is no imputed sin through Adam even at birth, there is no need for us to be redeemed by Christ. Essentially through Adam's imputed sin, we have fallen and we cannot get up... fully dead in sin and unable to choose life since birth. We are born hating God and loving sin. Hating the true God. But not the man-centered, flesh-appealing god.
The point is that we are naturally sinners- born sinners. Did I choose to hate God? I was born hating God. Why? Isn't it because God ordained it that way for His good pleasure and ultimately to display His glory.
Would my mother have passed down the alcoholic gene and make it just naturally my sin? Would you be sinning against me by insisting that I have made a choice to be an alcoholic even though I come from many generations of alcoholics?
I am responsible for my sin... period. I do also believe in double-predestination.
I like what Sproul has to say:
In the Reformed view God from all eternity decrees some to election and positively intervenes in their lives to work regeneration and faith by a monergistic work of grace. To the non-elect God withholds this monergistic work of grace, passing them by and leaving them to themselves. He does not monergistically work sin or unbelief in their lives. Even in the case of the "hardening" of the sinners' already recalcitrant hearts, God does not, as Luther stated, "work evil in us (for hardening is working evil) by creating fresh evil in us."2 Luther continued:
***When men hear us say that God works both good and evil in us, and that we are subject to God's working by mere passive necessity, they seem to imagine a man who is in himself good, and not evil, having an evil work wrought in him by God; for they do not sufficiently bear in mind how incessantly active God is in all His creatures, allowing none of them to keep holiday. He who would understand these matters, however, should think thus: God works evil in us (that is, by means of us) not through God's own fault, but by reason of our own defect. We being evil by nature, and God being good, when He impels us to act by His own acting upon us according to the nature of His omnipotence, good though He is in Himself, He cannot but do evil by our evil instrumentality; although, according to His wisdom, He makes good use of this evil for His own glory and for our salvation.2***
Thus, the mode of operation in the lives of the elect is not parallel with that operation in the lives of the reprobate. God works regeneration monergistically but never sin. Sin falls within the category of providential concurrence.
Another significant difference between the activity of God with respect to the elect and the reprobate concerns God's justice. The decree and fulfillment of election provide mercy for the elect while the efficacy of reprobation provides justice for the reprobate. God shows mercy sovereignly and unconditionally to some, and gives justice to those passed over in election. That is to say, God grants the mercy of election to some and justice to others. No one is the victim of injustice. To fail to receive mercy is not to be treated unjustly. God is under no obligation to grant mercy to all — in fact He is under no obligation to grant mercy to any. He says, "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy" (Rom. 9). The divine prerogative to grant mercy voluntarily cannot be faulted. If God is required by some cosmic law apart from Himself to be merciful to all men, then we would have to conclude that justice demands mercy. If that is so, then mercy is no longer voluntary, but required. If mercy is required, it is no longer mercy, but justice. What God does not do is sin by visiting injustice upon the reprobate. Only by considering election and reprobation as being asymmetrical in terms of a positive-negative schema can God be exonerated from injustice.
... and I do believe this does apply here because so many turn to the It is God's fault I am a homosexual. I was born gay.
Not born gay.
Born a sinner.
Dr. Mohler has responded. Please take a look at his blog.
John--my sister's grandson was born with ambiguous genitalia; he was thought to be a girl until chromosome testing was done.
Here is part of an email a friend sent me which helps me to understand:
Man puts God in a box. We can not even begin to imagine his greatness.
At the famous Scopes Monkey Trials, this question was asked by the evolutionists, "Who was Cain's wife? The question went unanswered and the evolution wave grew.
The simple answer is, Cain's wife was either his sister or a very close relative. God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply. As the creator, His commands become ingrained in our DNA. Thus "sex drive".
Adam and Eve were the first. Perfect genetic humans. For man to imagine that they even resembled man today, is ignorant.
God created man to live forever. Man's sin prevented this.
The truth is that sin has caused the "de-evolution of the man" What we see in the mirror today is not what God originally created.
Now, I'm not claiming that all of that is scriptural, but it does make sense that the fall ruined what should have been perfection.
Also, the difference between your sins, pride and gluttony, as you describe them, and homosexual behavior, is that you recognize your behavior as sin, while many homosexuals do not, and are offended when it is called that.
Mohler's response article is excellent.
Carla and I have a question:
Today, Dr. Mohler posted an entry intended to clarify things. I for one am glad he posted it. But this part leaves me stratching my head:
“In one article, I was said to advocate genetic therapies. I never said that, and I resolutely oppose such proposals. I would not advocate the use of genetic therapies to create heterosexual babies — or any other therapy of this type.”
http://www.albertmohler.com/blog_read.php?id=901
While I am glad he doesn’t support it, this is what he wrote earlier:
“8. If a biological basis is found, and if a prenatal test is then developed, and if a successful treatment to reverse the sexual orientation to heterosexual is ever developed, we would support its use as we should unapologetically support the use of any appropriate means to avoid sexual temptation and the inevitable effects of sin.”
http://www.albertmohler.com/blog_read.php?id=891
Huh? I am left stratching my head.
I just spoke with a fellow staff member over in the President’s Office and mentioned I was sending an email to them with that question. Hopefully it will be clarified soon!
4given,
Are you serious? His clarification states exactly what I've been saying here! I guess maybe I haven't been clear enough. Or maybe I'm just not Dr Mohler - established figurehead in the conservative movement.
He states:
"There is no conclusive research that indicates any biological basis for sexual orientation. But -- and this is a big "if" here -- if science were ever to discover a correlation or causation with biological factors, Christians should not be surprised."
and
"Caring Christians will be aware of the fact that many persons who struggle with homosexuality -- males and females -- testify as Christian believers or as those troubled in conscience that they simply have no idea where same-sex desire originated in their lives. They do know that they did not choose this pattern of attraction."
and
"...even though no "orientation" can alter the moral status of actions, the fact remains that some persons are sexually attracted to persons of the same sex while the majority are sexually attracted to persons of the opposite sex."
Anyway, I agree. Nice clarification from Mohler.
I'm curious - Mohler's original comments were aimed at people...like you and I. Do you take anything away from them? Do you feel like his comments apply to you? Do you consider the fact that perhaps we've sinned in the way we deal with homosexuals?
The "I was born this way" argument is a actually a good case for pre-destination. I was born a sinner also.
I would have thought Brian McClaren would have made the posted quote.
There is no such thing as a homosexual. There are only people who practice homosexuality. Same-sex attraction is not an orientation, but a temptation. The secular media has drilled it into our brains that it is clinically an orientation. In all reality you cannot convert a homosexual into a heterosexual. We are to busy trying to reorient or convert these poor souls when all they need is Jesus. People are born physiologically, anatomically and biologically heterosexual. Same-sex attraction is temptation. We are not exempt from temptation in this life. It is not the goal in life for a person who is struggling with homosexuality not be attracted to the opposite sex; it is to have a relationship with God. Before God made Eve, He gave Himself to Adam. This is our goal in life, to live for the Father. This involves sanctification, hating sin and avoiding it. James talks about it in his book: "Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up." We must first submit to God, then resist the temptation, avoid sin, be humble and God will lift you up.
"God shows mercy sovereignly and unconditionally to some"
Thanks for the RC quote 4given.
If not for his grace, then I could have been a moral nice unbeliever, perhaps a Mormon. Or I could have been a murderer, rapist, etc.
Sure there are genes involved, that's part of the human's sinful problem. And there's also Satan, and then there's this evil world we live in.
And each and everyone of us will give an account for his works.
"But God with His great mercy!"
People need to hear that they are sinners, rebels against a Holy Creator. They need to be convicted of their sin, as we all were, who have be born again.
Then the wonder and beauty of His mercy at the Cross will become the only thing we ever boast in.
Galatians 6:14
I do believe some may be prone to be more tempted by certain sins but that doesn't justify it. I do believe Mohlers response was excellent because there was more clarity on what he believes, and not because I perfectly agree with everything.
John,
Actually you did not state EXACTLY what he was saying. No, you are not Mohler, but he is someone I do respect. However, just because I highly respect someone does not mean I will disregard being a Berean. And just because I do not know you and you are not known like Mohler does not mean I will disregard you as a nobody. Your words, though I do not agree with them completely are thought provoking. But then one can be thought provoking and be wrong. I could be thought provoking and dead wrong. I want to be questioned and challenged and kept on my toes to think Biblically.
I do like Kersh's words. Especially: Even if homosexuality is genetic, the sin is acting upon it... I must agree that it is a choice to commit the sin no matter if you are predisposed to committing the sin or not....The problem is blaming something or someone else for our choices concerning that which God says not to do.
Sincerely,
Lisa
I just wanted to quote Mohler's entire point 9 from his first statement for those of us who didn't have opportunity to read his words in context. I highlighted, what I think, may have been ignored:
9. We must stop confusing the issues of moral responsibility and moral choice. We are all responsible for our sexual orientation, but that does not mean that we freely and consciously choose that orientation. We sin against homosexuals by insisting that sexual temptation and attraction are predominately chosen. We do not always (or even generally) choose our temptations. Nevertheless, we are absolutely responsible for what we do with sinful temptations, whatever our so-called sexual orientation."
It would be impossible to preach the word to homosexuals and convince them of their sin, if they are victims of their own biological inclinations. And if that were the case, it would also point to an injustice on the part of God, that made them that way, and then condemns them. But God cannot be unjust.
There's one thing we're missing here. This whole thing got started due to a study on rams. But animals do not set our pattern of moral thought and behavior. In fact, most animals do things that would be considered moral aberrations if humans were to do them. Some animals eat their offspring, others eat their male partner, most have several partners a year, etc, etc. And this is all encoded in the animal's genes! There's a complete pattern of behavior that applies to animals, that does not apply to us.
We are condemned to hell because of our sinful nature and our actions. The Bible is very clear that even before we're born, we're lost. But in modern times we soften the edge of sin, and we make it appear as a disease, an inclination, something outside of us that dominates us. Well, the Bible is also clear on the fact the homosexuality is a sin, going against God's own image, And we also see that God is harsh and intolerant of this sin.
My final point. Romans 1:24-32 talks about this sin and says that God left them to their own 'lusts', which is where His judgment began. Paul's words there demonstrate how shameful and how far from God they were when they lusted after that way of life, and even before they acted on those lusts. Sin starts when we WANT to be far from God, and want to do what we shouldn't. We are not victims of sin, and we are never treated as such by God's judgment. There's no way our sin can change our genes and make God the author of the evil in us.
As a reminder, scientists completed the genetic map a few years ago, and some were actively looking for the 'gay gene'. It was not found.
Humberto said...
It would be impossible to preach the word to homosexuals and convince them of their sin, if they are victims of their own biological inclinations. And if that were the case, it would also point to an injustice on the part of God, that made them that way, and then condemns them. But God cannot be unjust.
Humberto,
If we are not to preach the good news that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, to those who cannot respond who are we to preach it to? The regenerate? While the Gospel builds up the regenerate it is to all the world that we are to proclaim it.
If you would like I can go through your entire statement logically, but it fails at several places. Man cannot and will not respond in his fallenness to the Gospel, yet it is we who still bear the burden of judgement . It is only when the dead are brought to life that we can do anything, and that only because of the Holy Spirit in us and we being in Christ
Drew,
You said "There is no such thing as a homosexual. There are only people who practice homosexuality."
First off - what expertise do you cite for your statement? Are you a biologist? A psychologist? Can you please give reference to the data you've used to come to your conclusion? Or is it just your opinion?
Secondly - to everyone - how do transgendered people decide if they're supposed to be men or women? Since God obviously is sending them mixed signals, what should they do?
May I impose with a quick question.
What is transgendered, and is this common?
BTW, nice to hear from you John, it's been a while.
John... God does not send mixed signals. I encourage you sincerely to stop arguing just to argue. That was not thought provoking and I really genuinely think you can do better. If anything, consider carefully re-reading my comment that quoted Sproul.
Ex Animo,
Lisa (4given and Jon Nunley's wife)
Hemophrodites are people born with both male and female genatalia. Don - that's what I'm referring to as "trans-gendered people". I was trying to be subtle, but this seems like mostly adults here anyway.
Up to 1% of humans are born with this condition depending on whose numbers you are going to believe. It's not a huge percentage, but the numbers are still substantial.
So Lisa - you don't think that would seem like mixed signals? Having both sets of sex organs?
You want everything to be so clean and clear and simple. But it is often not. You want God to be simple and never send mixed messages, but sometimes He does.
With regards to sexuality, you expect everyone to have the same desires and are insensed by the thought that some would be born with desires for the same sex. But I just see too much evidence that the fall has really messed everything up - including our genetics.
Now, my point is not to say that homosexual activity should be accepted or encouraged. But I do think that believers have a responsibility to be understanding and compassionate towards people with these desires.
To say "you're just gay because you want to be. Stop it!" is an uneducated, un-Christlike, redneck way to approach a very deep and personal problem. I think that's why many gays think Christians hate them. Instead of listening and understanding, they receive judgment and condemnation.
I really have a hard time understanding why ANYONE would choose that lifestyle. I think that at least some of the desire is in-born most of the time.
"the fall has really messed everything up - including our genetics."
And we are guilty before a Holy Creator. Amen.
The book of Romans explains this in no uncertain terms. As it does that salvation is from God alone, through His grace alone, and that all mankind is condemned, and rightfully so.
Men suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
"It is not that the truth is sought but cannot be found, but rather that, confrinted with the truth (which is clearly seen), fallen humanity seeks to hinder and obstruct its influence, and is therefore "without excuse".
One other thought is that Satan comes as an angel of light. He hates the truth, but he loves to subtly distort it just enough to keep people thinking good about themselves, and there sinful dilemma.
John,
I get the impression that you, like many other Emergents, don’t really think that truth is knowable. From your last comment, it seems like you do not believe in absolute truth.
You demonstrate that you want to have it both ways on this issue. You make contradictory statements. And I also find that you are putting words in people’s mouths on this blog that they are not saying.
I took a look at your blog the other day, and you have a recent post (from Feb. 14) stating the supposed errors that you think are found in the Bible. So, this totally confirms my suspicions that you do not believe in the absolute truth of the Holy Bible.
I do believe that in your quest for truth you are throwing out truth, so that you will never be able to know truth, but that is what has become your truth. That’s the Catch 22 of it.
Praying for you.
Michele
Michelle,
Thanks for the prayers. Now how about answering my question. You know - the one everyone is ducking...
If God would not allow people to be born with "unnatural" desires, then how can He allow people to be born with both sets of sex organs?
This is not about emergence or not being able to know the truth. It's a very simple question. If you are one of those people who look down and see conflicting signals being sent about your gender, how do you know what you're supposed to be? What does the scriptures teach about this?
And Michelle - you obviously don't believe in the authority and inerrancy of Holy Scripture or else you would never dare to contradict me - a male - when you are but a lowly female. That's grounds for stoning young lady! ;)
(For those of you us who are missing the irony gene, that last statement is meant to be tongue-in-cheek...)
John
You asked;
"If God would not allow people to be born with "unnatural" desires, then how can He allow people to be born with both sets of sex organs?"
The point is that He does allow people to be born with both sets of sex organs, He allows people to be conceived in sin, born to be imperfect! He allows it because these things are a consequence of a wrong choice made in the Garden of Eden. He then allowed the law to be written so that we could see our sinful state before him and understand that we are hopelessley lost. Then He allowed his son to come and die in our place to pay for the penalty of that wrong decision in the Garden. And all this was allowed that He might be glorified by a people that love him.
When a person truly comes to know Christ as their Lord and Savior it is amazing how these complex problems that you struggle with become insignificant in comparison to knowing Him. If you read the inerrant perfect word of God you will find the answer to all these complex problems, apparently Dr. Mohler has forgotten this and I am pretty sure that you have yet to find this. Still praying for you John.
I just believe it is a work of the Lord.
Ro:1:24: Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Gigantor,
If your contention is that when you come to Christ, you no longer struggle with the sins you did before, I'm going to have to disagree with you. If your contention is that Christianity makes life easy, then I will agree with you again. Those ideas are just wishful thinking on your part.
skykerria,
Notice the OTHER sins in that list. Why do we always focus on homosexuality and forget pride, lack of mercy and coveteousness.
John
Never implied that life would be easier, just that there would be right and true answers. In the end everything will be put in order for those who know Christ, and for those who do not know Him everything will be infinitely worse.
It is unfortunate that you can not answer anything posed to you John, control issues I guess! But that makes sense since you seem to not be in control, eph 4:14 seems to suit you well, you seem to be such a conflicted man and I really feel for you. I sincerely hope and am praying that God will have mercy on you and bring you to a knowledge of the truth, perhaps some day you will enter his rest.
I want to encourage people to stop giving John attention. He has gotten answers to his questions and is not taking this post seriously. The answers are just not what he wants to hear. Plus, his tongue-in-cheek is the worst I have ever seen.
(John, you're not funny. It doesn't come naturally to you.)
Lisa @ Deo Volente
(apologies. for some reason I cannot log-in as me so I have to use my husbands)
Lisa
Agreed, John generally only takes seriously that wich applies to his own reality and experience and he is not even sure of that. There is some history here though between he and I and as long as he is here to comment I am going to try to direct him/goad him to the truth. This may be a futile exercise but for some reason I actually like the guy, I'd even go to San Antonio to have a burrito with him, or thai.
Gigantor,
I commend you for your patience and to God be all the glory.
Lisa @ Deo Volente
John,
Sorry for the late post, I know I am late in the game. You asked me what expertise I had when making the statement that there are no such thing as a homosexual. God does not make homosexuals. He made man male and female and said it was good. It was perfect, without sin. We all have temptation, but sin is a choice. We all choose to sin at some point in our lives. No John, there are no such thing as a homosexual, just sinners. That is the way God sees us all before we are covered in the blood of Jesus.
> All sin is a heart issue--not a genetic one. The wrath of God is not coming because of genetic predisposition; but because of sin.<
Still your point should not be discarded Steve. That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the spirit is spirit. God has no use for the flesh or the wicked heart that existed there. He nailed the sinful nature to the cross. The new nature is unscathed and perfect. The dead should bury the dead. As you have pointed out...Christians shouldn't even be ministering to this gay gene issue. It is the wrong place to focus and it will indeed inevitably always lead to politics.
Dang, John, was I talking to myself? I addressed your "transgendered" issue many comments ago. Many of these babies can actually be identified by chromosomes as having only one gender, and there can be surgical repair.
For the few that aren't identified, it's a matter of the imperfection that entered the world through sin, ruining our perfect human DNA. Dude, you can seriously beat a dead horse.
John,
If you won't accept the words from a straight person, will the word from a son of a gay man do? My dad is gay. When he first left my family he admitted that homosexuality was wrong and a sin. He also admitted that the times he struggles least with homosexual temptations was when he spent significant time in Scripture, tithing and resting on the Sabbath; in other words seeking hard after God. When dad wasn't seeking hard after God was when he struggled the most. John, truth is truth and God's word is truth. Here is want God, through the apostle Paul, tells us about homosexuality.
1Co 6:9 "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality..."
Now I do think that there is a difference between someone saying that they are a homosexual and someone who says they struggle with homosexual temptation. The difference is that the first does not accept scripture and says God is a liar when they say "God made me this way." The second person realizes the truth that homosexuality is sin and is wanting God to rescue them from their temptation. Look at it this way. We all, as Christians, have something that Satan uses to tempt us. For some it is homosexuality, for some gambling, for another it may be gluttony. For the person who struggles with homosexuality and wants to be in right relationship with God doesn't want that struggle just like the person struggling with gambling, gambling, etc... It is a matter of choice. We are born into sin, but we have the choice to not sin. The same is true for the person who struggles with homosexuality, they have the choice. Again, a reminder, my dad had admitted this to me.
So the homosexual will not inherit the kingdom of heaven, but the person seeking God fully can be rescued and saved from their temptations.
Steve,
I was stunned when I found your blog today. I have been a long time fan of you and your music. My favorite song is 'Consider the Cost'. Thank you for obeying God's call on your life. You are a blessing. You may never know how many people you have impacted for Christ, but know that I am one you have influenced to seek to live a holy and pleasing life for God. Blessing Brother!
In Christ,
Kevin
I've been commenting on the other thread. I didn't realize I was being skewered over here! Wow! Feel the love!
Look. At the end of the day, I guess the best bet is for us all to focus on our OWN sin instead of everyone else's. I think perhaps that's what Jesus wrote in the sand as the crowd was about to stone the harlot - the sins of those about to throw their rocks. And they fell away one by one - from oldest to youngest.
I'm not gay. I don't know their struggle. I will have grace with them for that reason. If they say they can't help their feelings, I'm going to accept that. If they say they don't believe it's a sin, I'll tell them that I hope they're right - but to please be sure.
Each of us have to make our own peace with a personal God. As I read through scripture, it's obvious that God chooses who He will and I won't make the mistake of being so prideful as to tell people their status with Him.
As for the science behind this, there are plenty of "scientists" on both sides of the aisle using bad science to prop up their own ideas of what's right and wrong. It's so bad, you really don't know who to believe.
Some scientists will say that you can be born gay. The next day, another will say you can't. Liberal scientists will take weak arguments for evolution and try to make them seem more viable while their conservative counterparts will try to convince everyone that global climate change is a lie.
I guess the main thing is how are we going to treat the hommosexual community? Will we accuse them, harp on them and berate them? Or will we listen to them and be friendly? Will we pray for them and bless them and serve them? Will we steer clear of them - choosing not to associate with them?
If that's your solution, good luck. But that's not Jesus' approach. It just isn't.
The only people Jesus spoke as harshly to as some of you speak about gay people was the pharisees. They were the "religious" ones - the ones proud about how well they served God. They felt like they had it figured out and made sure that everyone knew it. They didn't operate in humility - instead, they operated in piety.
He called them whitewashed tombs - beautiful on the outside but full of dead men's bones. He called them the sons of Satan and told them they didn't really know anything about the God they claimed to live for.
So, while we may disagree about whether homosexuality is all choice or only some choice, we can hopefully agree that the correct course of action is to love them, serve them and pray for them. Instead of gays seeing Christians as their enemies, we should do all we can to ensure them that we care for them. That's the way Jesus would do it.
John
How post modern of you!
"I'm not gay. I don't know their struggle. I will have grace with them for that reason. If they say they can't help their feelings, I'm going to accept that. If they say they don't believe it's a sin, I'll tell them that I hope they're right - but to please be sure."
Wow, you will tell them you hope their right! And you are even polite and say "please be sure." Is this really how love acts? Is this how Jesus was with people? You must be reading a different bible.
John--for the record, I wasn't "skewing" you; I was discussing it with you. I'm interested in the opinions of others, even when they don't always disagree with mine. Sometimes I actually learn something that way.
Um, I meant even when they don't agree with mine. Duh.
Marcia,
I was really talking more about Lisa --- ERRRR --- Jon's wife. I especially liked her "I want to encourage people to stop giving John attention. He has gotten answers to his questions and is not taking this post seriously."
Gig,
We're reading the same book - just with different perspectives. I don't feel that it's my responsibility to convict people of sin. That's God's deal. My job is to love others and work on my own crud - of which there is plenty.
It's pretty simple really. Love everyone and pray for everyone. That works for friend and foe alike. It works for those who have a relationship with God and those who don't.
I think the Church would be in a much better place if everyone would take care of their part of the wall (shout out to Nehemiah) and let everyone else do the same. Let God convict people of their sin. Let God draw people to repentence by His mercy.
If every believer was in the business of loving and living sacrifically instead of being "fruit inspectors", I think it would please God and increase the influence we can have on our culture.
John:
It's hard to keep up with all the comments on many threads people are engaging here. But I saw that too.
I want to apologize to you; Lisa is a dear sister in the Lord and has a gentle heart to her, But sometimes we all can be over zealous with our words and that is what happened here. She was out of line on someone else's blog, to try and shut down conversation with anyone here. I don't agree with some of your comments, but you are posting according to the rules and therefore you are always welcome here.
Other blogs have shut down people from posting comments or even limiting their comments to only positive things said about them. I don't subscribe to that here and welcome vibrant discussion and debate. It is healthy and good..
My friend, John MacArthur, told me years ago, "truth can always stand the test of scrutiny; error never wants to be challenged." I hold to that axiom on this blog.
So, while I disagree with you on this issue in part, you are free to comment here; and again, my apologies for Lisa's zealous remarks.
Grace and peace,
Steve
Col. 1:9-14
Steve,
Thanks. No hard feeling towards Lisa, either. It ain't no thang as they say.
Thank you for allowing those of us from the "dark side" --- uhhh --- the postmoderns - to post here. I used to get so frustrated with Slice of Laodicea. They really don't understand the purpose of blogs at all.
Anyhow - thanks for allowing us to participate.
John
Keep on posting, you have been a great benefit to me, perhaps I will come to san antonio someday and buy you a burrito or some thai food, tongues of fire!
SJ Camp
My girls want to come to Nashville, is that southern hospitality alive with you? I'll buy you and yours breakfast at the pancake pantry.
Steve,
While Lisa may have gone too far in telling whomever not to address John, the reasons behind her comment are valid.
John is one confused man.
But far worse than that, he is continually casting doubt on the Word of God. He has nothing to offer this discussion because he has no authority. And he has no authority because he sits in judgment of the Word of God, instead of the other way around.
(If there's any doubt of this, one need only take a look at his blog, particularly the Feb. 6, 2007 and Feb. 14, 2007 posts re inerrancy.)
Steve, your Rule #8 in "Rules of Engagement" is:
8. Titus 1:9 says, "instruct in sound doctrine and refute those who contradict." Though I allow diverse discussion to take place here, unsound doctrine will be confronted fearlessly and error will be refuted relentlessly when it is expressed.
I don't think John's "unsound doctrine" of an error-riddled Bible has been refuted at all. Scriptures have been quoted to him, but they roll off him like water off a greasy duck's back, because he simply chooses which ones he "judges" to be valid, and throws out the rest.
John wrote in one of his comments,
"We're reading the same book - just with different perspectives." Yes...most of us *believe* it.
He stirs up disagreeable straw-man controversies, and can't even agree with himself (e.g., he enters the conversation by saying that homosexuality is sin, but then makes intricate arguments to show why we should doubt the Word of God when it says homosexuality is a sin. His ridiculous analysis of Leviticus would have us believing that bestiality is OK, since it's on par with sewing two kinds of fabric together).
Although I've followed these gene threads closely, I've chosen not to respond to John, because of your Rule #1 of "Rules of Engagement":
...don't feed the trolls.
I hold no ill-will toward John personally, but I do feel sorry for believers who are adrift with no rock of authority to stand on, having been sucked in by those who judge the Word of God and find it wanting.
Recommended resource:
The Battle for the Bible by Harold Lindsell. It's out of print, but plenty of copies are available on Amazon. I read this in 1977, and it impacted me greatly, even to this day. Lindsell's analysis of the so-called "errors" of Scripture puts light-weight unbelieving "scholars" to shame.
Blessings,
Terry
Terry
Thank you for speaking the truth.
Terry:
I do agree with your comment and I also do think the reasons behind Lisa's comment were valid and proper. I also think though that Gigantor has done an excellent job here of refuting John's unsound doctrine--so it hasn't gone un-refuted.
This would fall under the banner of ministering to another about the sufficiency of God's Word.
As you know, when dealing with Roman Catholic issues here, I have allowed Roman priests to post at length in order to be in dialogue with and exposed to orthodox Christians, like yourself, who frequent this blog and hold to the essentials of the faith--one being the sufficiency and infallibility of God's Word. That can be a ministry to them.
I view John in that same way. He is postmodern and does not hold to the authority of Scripture as you and I do. I think that many here can have a voice to John as a witness to the veracity and perspicuity of the Word of God. So for a season, I encourage others here to dialogue with him.
But as you know, I have deleted people from here when they seriously cross the line; and if John does, he will be gone. I don't want to see an opportunity to speak into a life lost here.
I appreciate you greatly brother and thank you for your words.
Grace and peace,
Steve
2 Tim. 3:16-17
John,
I noticed that not one of your posts contains no scripture to support your pov. When it comes to truth there is no such thing as opinion, only what God's Word says. So can you use any scripture to support your POV?
Kevin,
I refuse to use scriptures as darts. It's not that I don't love scripture and I certainly can discuss it if you'd like.
But this particular post isn't covered in scripture specifically. Unless I missed the chapter in Leviticus about genetics...
John
C'mon, the word is not really a priority to you, as you said it is part poetry, part history and part myth, it is a work of man. If you believe what you say John then show your true colors!
Just because I don't believe that scripture is some mindless laundry list of do-s and don't-s does NOT mean it's not important to me.
I do believe it to be poetry (Psalms, Song of Solomon) and history (Kings, Samuel, Acts) and myth (the parables of Christ, Jonah, Esther, etc).
Look Gig - there is more than one way to interpret scripture. Conservative American believers didn't just start "getting it right" in the 1970s. It's prideful to think you've got it all figured out.
Your comments belie the fact that you don't have a clue about the history of the Church or the impact of the enlightenment on theological thought.
As for the importance of scripture in my life, how exactly can you make that point? I've done some very big things in my life based on my belief in the Word of God. I think everyone here has this idea that I never read scripture and don't respect it. That's simply not the case.
Just because I don't prooftext scripture in every post like many others do, I'm accused of not using scripture to back up my ideas. Honestly, anyone can use scripture to back up pretty much anything they want to say or do. Nazis, white supremacists, communists, godhatesfags.com, etc. So excuse me if I'm not impressed when you roll out three verses to convince me that homosexuality is wrong - the most vitriolic of which is in Leviticus, a book obviously not aimed at your or I.
Steve,
That's the most patronizing thing I've ever seen. Honestly, I'm very insulted.
I just saw it or I probably would not have posted anything else this morning.
Between you and Terry and Gigantor, I can see why fundamentalist churches are shriveling up like dried up old tomatoes.
You're so sure that you have it all figured out. Here you guys sit, judging the sins of others - worrying about the speck in others' eyes. Passing judgment on people you don't know. Using scripture as political doctrine to further increase your power and influence - or worse, as darts to sling at others.
I can assure you that mine is not a "life lost" as you claim.
As you've rightly said, I've never stepped over the line here. In contrast, those "who frequent this blog and hold to the essentials of the faith" insist that I'm not saved and toss all sorts of accusations my way. Where exactly is YOUR line? You've got a great explanation of what other people can and can't say here. You should write one of those for yourself and your cronies.
At least I know it isn't personal. That what you guys do to anyone who doesn't agree with you - even Al Mohler who you've greatly respected for years. I guess spiritual pride runs deeper than loyalty.
So, I'm not sure if this will get me banned but I really don't care. I didn't want this to become all about me. I posted here to discuss the issue Mohler brought up. I am sorry that I have become a distraction.
John,
God never intended that His Word be used as darts. At times it may feel like darts, because for some the truth hurts. Know not everyone who is confronted with truth takes it as a dart, some accept it with all joy and are happy that they now know the truth. So John, an discussion between Christians should always consider God's word, or we are just blowing smoke. Without God's word we have no foundation. Based on what you have said so far in the discussion, what part of it can you back up with scripture.
Kevin
John,
I just finished reading your last post to Steve. I find it very interesting that whenever a liberal "Christian" gets fustrated and refuses to listen to truth they bring out the old "Holier than Thou" or "Your a Pharisee" tag.
Now let's examine this claim. What was Jesus' issue with the Pharisees?
Kevin,
Look. This is a spiritual blog, right? Why do I have to quote scripture to a bunch of other people who should know what I'm talking about? When I say that Jesus commanded us to love each other, do I really need verses for that?
Against my better judgment, here goes... I'll quote a bunch of scripture I can sound holier and lay waste to your accusation of never quoting it...
Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself, ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted. — Luke 18:9-14
Watch and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees - Matt 16:6
Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, "Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread." He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?" - Matt 15:1-3
But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. - Matt 23:13
He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: 'This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' - Mark 7:5-7
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also. - Matt 23:25-26
Jesus didn't like that the Pharisees saw themselves as better than others.
He didn't like that they were proud of how well they lived for God.
He didn't like that they could see the sins of others, but not their own.
He didn't like that they held their own oral tradition (like the "law" of the sabbath) more than God.
He didn't like that the pharisees made all sorts of rules that were impossible for the common person to follow - that they "shut up" the kingdom to men.
He didn't like that they were hypocrites who taught their own laws and who did not honor God in their hearts.
He didn't like that they were worried about cleaning up other people's lives while inside, they were full of extortion and self-indulgence. They were self-centered and interested in profiting off their position.
John
It is not about you but there are some, you included, that think that speaking the truth is passing judgement. Your insulted, don't you mean that you can't handle your cage being rattled? Thought you were bigger than that, you made it about you by saying you are insulted. Steve has not been in your face like I have so no need in going off on him. You aren't getting ousted from here because we actually love you enough to put the truth in your face, perhaps this is the last place you will find it!
If you see someone about to get run over by the steam roller you do all that you can to get them to move. As I said before, and you apparently do not listen to this, I do not judge your soul or anyone elses here in the sense that I can say that you are going to hell or that you are reprobate and there is no hope. I see the fruit of your life in what you say and based on that I make a judgement that your soul is in peril, I have used your exact words and quoted you many times but it is as if you will not acknowledge even that. This does not mean that eternal damnation is the way you will end up in the end, that is between you and God!
You may ask why I say that your soul is in peril? You say that you believe in Christ but you undermine what He has taught at every turn, you vascilate like one tossed back and forth on the sea, there is no consistency in what you say with the exception that you really have no answers, you might be wrong, and you do good works, that is they are good works with respect to the world and social causes. Just a few weeks ago you said that you did not want to destroy the faith of anyone and then in the same sentence you told Steve that he should be careful about totally trusting the reliability of the word, major contadiction here. You constantly talk about how God can do this or he can't or won't do that but you never site any reason how you know this other than your own mental ascent. For example, with respect to the passages that I posted showing how God felt about homosexuality, you denied that it was a accurate representation, you said it was a good sign of how the bible was primarily a work of men and you could not imagine how God could be so petty about homosexuality. What, we are supposed to trust your word over the bible?
Perhaps all of this is just to much for you to handle! It is apparent that you do not like the truth and you hate being confronted with your own words. Why are you afraid of the truth John, or do you think it even exists? Do you live most of your life in darkness so that you can not see what is around you all the time? I understand why you do not quote the word of God, the truth is that it is a enigma to you, you can't figure it out so you are going to do all you can do to undermine it and destroy it.
My pastor is preaching from 1 Th. 5 right now and the heading that he has chosen to title his sermon is under "The Threat of Peace". You say that the church is shrinking because of people like us but I woul have to say to you that it is not shrinking but growth is slowing because less people love the truth today, one day it will grow no more because the spirit of God will not strive with man forever. Next thing you know all the Christians will be gone and you wont have to hear the truth anymore, your peace will be here.... but it will be a false peace. I hope you catch on soon John!
John,
You are right about why Jesus had issues with the Pharisees. Now how does, if it does, relate to your acussation of the people disussing with you being "holier than thou" or a Pharisee?
Kevin,
Well, some people here seem to be much more focused on the sins of others as opposed to their own.
Furthermore, I believe it's pride to think one's understanding of scripture is the only valid one. To think I'm right and everyone else is wrong takes some big ...uh... confidence.
But I think the height of pride is telling someone else that they're lost when they confess Christ as lord, the trinity, etc. We should really leave judgment of people's souls to God.
Gig says he doesn't do that, but he does it constantly. To say that I lack the truth or that he hopes I "get it" one day obviously shows he's judged me.
Then, yesterday's blast from Terry and Steve. I mean - none of us really know each other. I would NEVER say that any of you are lost. How the heck do I know? I don't accuse anybody of being false teachers, either. Just because people disagree with my interpretation of scripture doesn't automatically make their thoughts invalid.
If that's postmodern, sobeit. Everyone must study and be honest with themselves and God about what they find. People are going to disagree. We're supposed to have grace with each other and find common ground - not stake out sides and start hurling crud at each other.
That's a big reason the world at large thinks we're a bunch of idiots. They see us bickering and fighting about petty stuff and sticking our noses into other people's sins instead of just focusing on following Christ and allowing Him to change US.
(An example that comes to mind would be a group of conservative commentators turning their guns on Dr Mohler - another conservative comentator - when he says something they don't totally agree with.)
We act so persecuted and talk about how few accept Christ these days. The fact is, most people are drawn to the teachings of Christ. It's us believers that repel them.
"most people are drawn to the teachings of Christ."
I agree that the Church is an eye-sore at times. The whole histroy of the Church, and even the people of God before Christ, hasn't been what it should be, light and salt, speaking the truth in love.
But even in the midst of the failure of htese people, God is on His throne, and He is building His Church.
jesus promised to build His Church, and who can stop Him?
I disagree that most people are drawn to Christ's teachings. He has some hard things to say.
He says that anyone who does not hate his wife, family, and ownself, can have no part of Him.
He says to pluck your eye out if it causes you to sin.
Sure he says my yoke is easy and my burden light as well, but if you take all His teachings, and whole counsel of Christ our Lord, then I would say all people will hate them.
But God, who is rich in mercy!"
He takes dead sinners, and he makes them alive. He loves them, and they then love His teachings.
John i appreciate your gentleness. may the Lord continue to work in your heart, and all our hearts as well.
All for Jesus, and His Cross. Gal. 6:14
John
You said;
"To think I'm right and everyone else is wrong takes some big ...uh... confidence."
So are you right John, are you sure? Are you confident? If you do not know how can you tell us anything. Your line of reasoning is confused. You are not even sure of yourself. Your comment about what you would say to a homosexual is very telling;
"If they say they don't believe it's a sin, I'll tell them that I hope they're right - but to please be sure."
The reality that you live in, the belief that you have, does not allow you to tell anyone that they are right or wrong, you do not believe that you can know for sure. That is until you come to something that your reality disagrees with, then you speak up, of course you are a hypocrite by your own cofession because calling someone out and telling them they are wrong or right does not fit your creed. You epitomize the post modern movement, a convenient belief for those who are lazy, those who want to be held to the standard of the wind, you just go whereever your tortured little soul is blown.
You say you confess, you believe;
James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble.
While faith is dead without works it is equally as true that faith is dead when one has only a mental ascent, just as the devil and his demons. This is a belief that does not hold to the scriptures but it holds to its reason and the philosophies of men, it looks good but it is all in vain.
Imagine the frustration of those in Mt. 7:22 when they think that they have done all the right things but then Christ says He never knew them.
You may not have the internal fortitude to confront someone in love and tell them what you see as the condition of their soul, but then again I guess you do not even know what the condition of your own soul is. I know the condition of mine and I have learned from Christ by His word how to discern the truth. This does not mean that I am never wrong but it does mean that I have confidence in my Lord and what He has told me through the scriptures.
So John, perhaps you could answer this question. Do you believe what you know strong enough to die for it? If you see someone lost, do you have enough love to tell them that they are lost when they think that they are not? Or do you just let them wander aimlessly until they eventually die? They were that close to the truth and you could not tell them because you were not sure of it yourself. Are you sure you know Christ, or do you just know parts of a well written story, maybe you know some good poetry, perhaps some accurate history or a tantalizing myth, but do you know the truth? It can be found only in one place John and that is in the bible, if you do not hold to this then you are sorely deceived. I pray that you will find out before it is to late.
Gig,
"Do you believe what you know strong enough to die for it?"
Yes. And even to live for it.
But I'm able to feel that way because I did the work of seeking. I wrestle with God. We must each do that. I can't do that for anyone else.
It's God's job to "look into our lives and show us the condition of our soul". It's His kindness that draws us to repentance. You have no right to do that to me and vice-versa. We're supposed to be worried about our OWN soul (work through your salvation with fear and trembling...)
People who look at everyone else must feel like they're all set. "Why fear or tremble? I'm all good. The bible says it. I believe it. Case closed. Now, let's talk about YOU."
There's a word for that, Gig - it's called...JUDGING the condition of someone else's soul. "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means..."
Scripture teaches that we can't even know our OWN condition (the heart is deceitfully wicked...) so how do you figure you can tell someone else's condition?
OK. So. I know you'll be praying for me. I know you think I'm deceived because I believe that the creation story could be myth. We've been around this mountain several dozen times. You think I'm lost. I think you're a pharisee. You think I'm deceived. I think you're reading too literally in an attempt to make something difficult easier. You think I'm confused. I think you're judgmental. Yada yada.
After all these posts, I'm still not backing down from my faith. I do know Christ.
So one last time - in language you'll understand - and this is really the last time I will defend my faith to you.
I have accepted Jesus Christ as my personal savior. I count on His sacrifice to make me acceptable to God - not my own righteousness since I don't have any. I confirm that I believe that Christ is the only way God prescribes for me to enter His kingdom. It's by His grace, through faith that I stand.
I believe that Jesus is the Christ - the Messiah. He teaches us to love God with all our heart, mind and strength and to love our neighbor as ourself. He teaches us to pray for and actively love everyone - including our enemies. He asks us to be willing to forsake everything for Him. He asks us to be servants - the least will be the greatest.
He commands us not to forget the needy, sick and oppressed in Matthew 25. Those who do, He calls goats and says they will be sent away.
I believe in the death, burial and resurrection of said Jesus. I believe that there is some sort of life after this and that my relationship to God here means something in that next age. I believe that one can come to a place where they remain separated from God - perhaps for a season or possibly for all eternity. Frankly, I don't care which it is. I'd just rather not be separated at all thank you.
I believe that God is some weird, mysterious mix of three persons or forms or something. He's in me, beside me and around me. All things exist in Him, were created by Him and without Him nothing exists that exists. He is the glue that holds the fabric of the universe together. He cannot be measured or understood or fathomed. Every attempt we make to can Him, catch Him, bullet-point Him, or corner Him is fruitless. We exist for Him - not Him for us.
He has some sort of freaky plan that none of us can really figure out - except to say that it has something to do with making us more like Him.
He wants us to be known by our love. Jesus taught the kingdom of God - not just one day some day, but right here and right now. He taught us that the kingdom of God is here. And where you are. And everywhere there is someone willing to worship in spirit and truth.
Jesus shattered convention. He was a revolutionary. He treated woman as equals. He said that there are some things more important than family. He set right the traditions of men that had run am muck - like the sabbath and animal sacrifice.
He lived a perfect life and beckons us to follow Him - and in the process, become like Him.
I'm doing that the best I know how. I'm sure you are too. I encourage you to continue. I'll encourage myself as well - because if I wait for you to do it, I'll turn to dust first.
So - please don't analyze and pick apart my words here. Don't get out the binoculars and try to spot that speck in my eye. Scripture says your vision will be blocked by that lawn timber jutting out of yours. Just finally accept what I say. Like it or not, I'm a fellow follower of Christ - despite the fact that I read Psalms as poetry and Jonah as allegory. Even though I'll be working with the needy while you're picketing abortion clinics, I'm still a brother in Christ. Even though you may vote straight republican ticket each time and I think Bush has done more to damage America than any president ever, we'll still be together in That Day.
Yes. God is that big. The Church is that diverse. And the narrow way has all sorts of strange characters on it.
Matt the phantom
So we are a island and not our brother's keeper? You sound pious but perhaps you are a little selfish, I mean in that when you know someone is on the wide road you turn away and simply take care of yourself saying; its all cool.
Sorry bud, I don't want to see people die, that is eternal seperation from a living God. I am also not going to go around and pretend to be something that I am not, bugs bunny, darth vader, griffraf. As far as analyzing words and picking them apart, thats part of what this is all about, were here to make each other sharper. If you can't tell the truth then you can't truly love because truth is nothing with out love and love is nothing with out truth, they are forever linked together. You can say all the words that you want and make all the confessions that you want, unless you hold the the word of God, the Bible, then you are lost in every way. The scary thing for you is that you only hold to the poetry, history and myth and none of what you seem to hold to has truth, it's like a broken mirror and you never really know what it looks like.
Perhaps you are a waste of time as many have said, maybe you are just trying to feed your own ego, don't know and don't care. I know that there is truth, I have some of it and you need it. All that I am trying to do is lay it out so as you grope perhaps you will find it. You say that you do not think that I do not know what the word judge means but the fact is that it is something that all of us do all of the time! The question is by what standard does one judge and do we practice the very thing we are judging. The Bible does tell us to judge but to do it rightly. You say you are a Christian and as I have pointed out the confession that you make is more than just mental ascent and good works. You say that we can not know our condition and the word of God says that we can, so who should I listen to? Not you!
Sorry, my son logged in earlier so it posted under his name.
I think we should go ahead and end our little dance here. I'm sure everyone here is sick of both of us.
Well - I know they're sick of me at least.
John
You are wrong John, perhaps some have lost patience with your antibiblcal stance but I would hope that you continue to respond even though the senses of some are offended.
John:
I agree. The time has come to move this discussion between the two of you back to your own blogs or email. It is way off topic here and this is obviously something that you have both been engaged on before.
I would encourage you to consider all that Gigantor and others have tried to point out to you in this thread.
Gigantor:
I have appreciated your patience and faithful stance to defend the truth. Keep on for the glory of the Lord Jesus...
Grace and peace,
Steve
2 Cor. 4:5-7
John,
As I read what Terry and Steve have writtn you I don't think they are attempting to blast you. To me it just seems that they are passionate and that they want you to see the truth. To often we mistake Godly direction and correction as someone not minding their own business. We need to be careful to not be too quick to point fingers and call someone self-righteous or a Pharisee. This is why I asked you about why Jesus had issues with the Pharisees and how that relates to this situation. It is biblical to correct wrong theology and actions.
One side note, it is interesting to see what Jesus said in Matt 5:20 about how we are to act, "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."
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