tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post9120054031898919548..comments2024-03-24T03:21:03.154-04:00Comments on CAMPONTHIS: How to Know if You Are a Real Christian...a response to Dr. Francis Beckwith's defection to RomanismSJ Camphttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-12887855856196247192007-05-11T20:25:00.000-04:002007-05-11T20:25:00.000-04:00Woops! Should I have said "Rick?" I didn't see two...Woops! Should I have said "Rick?" I didn't see two names there. Sorry.Joelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02238001380092215123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-42310462488708480062007-05-11T18:36:00.000-04:002007-05-11T18:36:00.000-04:00So in essence they add early church history as aut...<I>So in essence they add early church history as authoritative as the Scripures themselves. </I><BR/><BR/>I wouldn't put it that way, Henry. I'm one of those converts, and what I found was that if there were two ways (or more) to interpret a given scripture, I usually had a choice between what the Church taught in the first few centuries, or what the Reformers taught in the 16th.<BR/><BR/>The early fathers were well familiar with the Bible, and certainly knew it better than I do. They weren't just pulling doctrines out of thin air, after all. So if they considered a given teaching consonant with the Bible, it seems a bad idea simply to dismiss it out of hand simply because the Reformers rejected it later.<BR/><BR/>It's not a question of replacing the Bible, but of choosing between teachers for interpretation. Do you go with the Apostles' own disciples, or do you go with Luther and Calvin?Joelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02238001380092215123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-17590501672068214172007-05-11T18:03:00.000-04:002007-05-11T18:03:00.000-04:00No one who reads the New Testament without histori...No one who reads the New Testament without historical perspective would embrace what Roman Catholicism teaches. So many of the reverse converts who go back to Rome use a study of the early church as one of the deciding factors in their change. This was so with Beckwith also.<BR/><BR/>So in essence they add early church history as authoritative as the Scripures themselves. Many also get consumed with intellectualism and the writings of the early church fathers. This trend accelerates and with all the blatant nonsense that Rome teaches we would assume that they would have long since lost any credibility among evangelicals.<BR/><BR/>Their continuing strength that is seeing respected and proven believers go back to Roman Catholicism must come from somewhere. The days are evil and this is just the beginning of birth pangs.Rick Fruehhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05879848568892457571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-56819071291843235222007-05-11T11:39:00.000-04:002007-05-11T11:39:00.000-04:00Dear Clemntine,Our assurance of salvation rests so...Dear Clemntine,<BR/><BR/>Our assurance of salvation rests solely in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is faith in Him alone that gives our hearts peace, rest and assurance. When we place our faith in anything else, i.e., faith in our own faith, our sincerest professions of faith, our own good works, feelings or experiences, we are hoping in vain. So, how do we get to the place where we can say with full confidence, “I know that I know”? The answer is always found in God’s word. <BR/><BR/>Romans 5:1,2 says this: “Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through Him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.” <BR/><BR/>Justification is the wonderful judicial act of God pardoning sinners (see Romans 3:10– 26; Rom 4:5; Rom 5:15 – 17; 2 Corinthians 5:21) based solely on the meritorious ground of Christ. <BR/><BR/>It is because of Christ alone that we receive divine pardon and acceptance (see Galatians 2:16; 3:24 – 26)<BR/><BR/>The necessary means of justification is personal faith in Jesus Christ as crucified Savior and risen Lord. Romans 10:8 -11 says this: “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.” <BR/><BR/>Romans 3:25, 26:<BR/>All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by His blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in His divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show His righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.<BR/><BR/>1Corinthians 15:3, 4: For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures (see also John1:29; Gal.1:4; Heb.5:1; Heb.3:1; 1Pt.2:24; Is 53; Hos.6:2; Mt.12:40; Jn2:22<BR/> <BR/>Titus 3:3- 7 says we were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, HE SAVED US (emphasis mine) not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to His own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”<BR/><BR/>The word of God says we were DEAD in our sins, BUT GOD intervened. We can do nothing to save ourselves; it is all based on faith alone in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ. <BR/><BR/>Put your faith IN CHRIST ALONE for your salvation. He will not fail you! You can trust Him; you must trust Him. Hebrews 11:6 says “without faith it is impossible to please Him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who seek Him.” Oh, believe Him Clemntine! <BR/> <BR/>Now regarding some books – I love books!! A few suggestions:<BR/><BR/>Jerry Bridges: <BR/>1. Growing Your Faith 2.Transforming Grace (living confidently in God’s unfailing love) <BR/><BR/>A.W. Tozer: <BR/>The Knowledge of The Holy<BR/><BR/>A.W. Pink: The Attributes of God<BR/><BR/>D.M. Lloyd-Jones: <BR/>Faith Tried and Triumphant<BR/><BR/>Kay Arthur: <BR/>1. Our Covenant God 2. LORD, I Want To Know You<BR/><BR/>I am praying for you!<BR/><BR/>Cindycydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15517976881032870570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-68692702786436426852007-05-11T09:07:00.000-04:002007-05-11T09:07:00.000-04:00Clemntine, I don't know if this is the forum or no...Clemntine, I don't know if this is the forum or not, either, but I was struck by the same thing in reading Edwards' words. Other people's certainty is amazing to me.Marciahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09655129514017134176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-62132941617319228592007-05-11T08:58:00.000-04:002007-05-11T08:58:00.000-04:00Steve,As a former Roman Catholic, I greatly apprec...Steve,<BR/><BR/>As a former Roman Catholic, I greatly appreciate your effort in revealing essential issues with Catholicism as a false religion.<BR/><BR/>Why the SBC endorses ecumenical men such as Chuck Colson, is beyond me.<BR/><BR/>Thank you for your effort.<BR/><BR/>God Bless & protect<BR/><BR/>JimWatcher's Lamphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09972106805853555453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-82109561867972378822007-05-11T01:40:00.000-04:002007-05-11T01:40:00.000-04:00I've read and re-read with desperate interest the ...I've read and re-read with desperate interest the paragraphs by Edwards, as I have struggled mightily with the question, "How do you know if you belong to God?"<BR/><BR/>I know that I want to. I need to.<BR/><BR/>Combing over Edwards' words, I am no more sure than I was before. I recognize myself in the "self-love" and "experiential" references. I got lost in the "feelings and experiences which are good signs of God's grace in the heart differ from the experience of demons in their source and in their results." <BR/><BR/>My question for you is, do you have a recommendation for me now? More personal discipline? Longer sessions of daily Bible reading and prayer? Is there a book, counselor, or other outside source that you've found useful in situations like mine?<BR/><BR/>I long to "know that I know." I'm 39, professed faith at 13, and I've striven for assurance since that time. Perhaps this isn't the forum, and if so, please excuse the comment.Dana~Are We There Yet?https://www.blogger.com/profile/15261214031857822308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-84303830640544818722007-05-10T15:21:00.000-04:002007-05-10T15:21:00.000-04:00Thank you Noel and I will be praying for your uncl...Thank you Noel and I will be praying for your uncle-in-law.<BR/><BR/>Phil. 1:21-27SJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-64505295781612062252007-05-10T14:29:00.000-04:002007-05-10T14:29:00.000-04:00Steve, First off, thanks for your ministry while a...Steve, <BR/><BR/>First off, thanks for your ministry while at the Toledo Conference. I am sharpened. Thank you. <BR/><BR/>I have a huge burden for an uncle-in-law. He is Roman Catholic. We have been debating about Protestant vs. Catholic theology for some time now. It is so defeating when all of his rebutals are the same, "Well that is how you interpret the Bible" or "I know the verses are in their, I just don't know where." AHHHHHHH how difficult that is when Scripture is clearly shown. Truth is clearly provided. Yet still deadness prevails through the fog of traditionalism and defeatism in a works based religion. Steve I am encouraged by your willingness to proclaim truth. Keep serving the Lord!Noelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12254124022627364691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-19094909118479333382007-05-10T13:35:00.000-04:002007-05-10T13:35:00.000-04:00Joel:The betrayal is not personal, but doctrinal. ...<B>Joel:</B><BR/>The betrayal is not personal, but doctrinal. I haven't heard any Protestant in Calvinistic circles say, "why did he betray <I>us?</I><BR/><BR/>The issue is doctrinal. I agree that Rome's soteriology is <I>"because our soteriology is much less cut-and-dried"</I> because it is not rooted in Scripture alone but in the traditions and moorings of men. There is a comfort in a dogmatic soteriology--salvation should not be subjective nor speculative--but absolute. When any of us move away from sola fide, then it becomes a matter of degrees of faith plus works doesn't it? IOW, Rome's soteriology grades on the curve where biblical soteriology does not.<BR/><BR/>So to reiterate, the betrayal and defection that we "feel" for Dr. Beckwith is one of genuine concern for him and his moving away from what we would consider as orthodoxy to heterodoxy as I outlined in this article.<BR/><BR/>Good to speak with you... <BR/>Steve<BR/>Col. 1:9-14SJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-53065582440985086432007-05-10T12:39:00.000-04:002007-05-10T12:39:00.000-04:00FWIW, from a Papist (and ex-Evangelical) point of ...FWIW, from a Papist (and ex-Evangelical) point of view, Dr. Beckwith's interview gives an excellent explanation. Even if I were absolutely opposed to his switch, I think I'd respect the reasons for it.Joelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02238001380092215123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-12972030991777980492007-05-10T12:12:00.000-04:002007-05-10T12:12:00.000-04:00Thanks, Steve. Your answers clear up a lot. I'm af...Thanks, Steve. Your answers clear up a lot. I'm afraid my understanding of Calvinism looks a little cartoonish, but I wanted to understand some of the reactions I've seen to this situation.<BR/><BR/>I particularly wondered about judgments on the fate of Dr. Beckwith's soul. Catholics typically are very cautious about speculating on another's salvation, because our soteriology is much less cut-and-dried. I've known a few Protestants who weren't nearly so reticent. :)<BR/><BR/>I know there's been a lot of talk, much of it angry, about Dr. Beckwith and that some Protestants are feeling betrayed by his switch. I was expecting to see judgment of his soul around the blogosphere (although I don't think I've seen any yet), but I didn't know if that would be an actual expression of Calvinist theology or just people speaking out of their hurt.Joelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02238001380092215123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-60790717986441226922007-05-10T11:29:00.000-04:002007-05-10T11:29:00.000-04:00For those interested: here is a recent interview w...For those interested: <A HREF="http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/mayweb-only/119-33.0.html" REL="nofollow"><B>here is a recent interview</B></A> where Dr. Beckwith is trying to qualify his recent return to Romanism.<BR/><BR/>SteveSJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-85689330034078900222007-05-10T11:22:00.000-04:002007-05-10T11:22:00.000-04:00JoelGreat questions and I will do my best in answe...<B>Joel</B><BR/>Great questions and I will do my best in answering them.<BR/><BR/><B>1. If Dr. Beckwith has become Roman Catholic, that means he has not persevered, and hence was never a Christian at all, is that right?</B><BR/><BR/>Time and truth go hand in hand. We will have to see if he maintains this course of action permanently--or if he repents of this error. <BR/><BR/><B>2. If so, what effect does that have on the teaching he imparted to those who thought he WAS a Christian? Is it now false teaching, because he had no real understanding of the Gospel truth?</B><BR/><BR/>Truth is truth no matter who says it. If the devil himself could read Scripture publicly and accurately that would not nullify its truth though that wicked serpent's motives would not be to glorify God in the reading. (To be clear, I am not comparing Dr. Beckwith to Satan, just using a dramatic example to illustrate the point.)<BR/><BR/>HIs current defection to Rome does not render his previous teachings or convictions as false that without question clearly squared with God's Word just because his own convictions have changed. That would ultimately make the truthfulness of the divine truth of God's Word dependent and subject to our own theological proclivities and moorings on any given day- (cp, 2 Peter 1:16ff). God is not subservient to us; but we are accountable to His Word - especially to those who are teachers of its truth (James 3:1). <BR/><BR/>I would hope that Dr. Beckwith's previous Protestant local church would begin a process of church discipline for him to see if by God's grace the truth of his current convictions can be uncovered thoroughly and specifically to confirm how drastic his departure from orthodoxy really is. <BR/>If he fully denies the biblical view of justification by embracing the Romanism view, then he would be in error. That is the conclusion we can only derive at this point. Dr. Beckwith is not a man slow of mind and unfamiliar with sound doctrine on the essentials of the faith. That is what makes this departure so disturbing.<BR/><BR/>To date, we are left to qualify his actions based on two things: his own testimony through interviews and a detailed public statement he crafted AND the ETS press release. By that statement, he is embracing, by public confession and Roman process, Romanism full on--therefore we must pray for this man for his repentance... <BR/><BR/>And I do say that with love understanding except for the grace of God there go I.<BR/><BR/><B>3. Had Dr. Beckwith been an ordained pastor (I gather he wasn't), if he in turn ordained other pastors at the seminary, would their ordinations be invalid, as coming from a non-Christian source? (Or are the ordinations actually from the seminary, and his agency irrelevant?)</B><BR/><BR/>Ordination is classically done through the local church by a body of godly men - an eldership. His one voice in the affirmation of anothers ordination is not the foundation by which that ordination rests or given authority. IOW, there is no Protestant Pope who solely possesses that authority over another. Ultimately, biblically God alone is the One who calls any one to ministry (1 Tim. 3:1-9; Gal. 1:10-14; 2 Tim. 1:9-12).<BR/><BR/><B>4. If Dr. Beckwith had been struck by a car and killed a few years ago, would he have been saved, because he had not yet switched to Rome, or would he have been damned because he wasnt really born again, and just hadn't manifested it yet?</B><BR/><BR/>Only the Lord nows the state of his heart based upon his own words. We do not. It would wrong for any of us to make a dogmatic eternal judgment on his or anyone else's soul based upon what has happened here. BUT, it would be loving and fair to ask of him what Paul asked of the Corinthian church <I>"test yourselves to see if you are in the faith."</I> (2 Cor. 13:5). His faith is and should suspect based upon his recent change in convictions and actions thereof.<BR/><BR/>Just as in a step four discipline (Matt. 18:15-20); when someone is "put out of the church" - we are not to declare them as nonbelievers due to their unrepentance; but we are to <I>treat</I> them as nonbelievers because of their unrepentance. There is a difference. Make sense?<BR/><BR/>I hope this helps a bit more. I always appreciate your questions... I prayerfully trust these answers were equal to the inquiry.<BR/><BR/>Yours for the Master's use,<BR/>Campi<BR/>Col. 1:9-14SJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-43591343402244290602007-05-10T09:46:00.000-04:002007-05-10T09:46:00.000-04:00I would be interested in hearing the answers to Jo...I would be interested in hearing the answers to Joel's questions as well.Marciahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09655129514017134176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-7890746718095465472007-05-09T17:01:00.000-04:002007-05-09T17:01:00.000-04:00Steve, this question also isn't meant to be bellig...Steve, this question also isn't meant to be belligerent. You seem to be a good person to ask about Calvinism, and you're familiar with this situation.<BR/><BR/>If Dr. Beckwith has become Roman Catholic, that means he has not persevered, and hence was never a Christian at all, is that right? If so, what effect does that have on the teaching he imparted to those who thought he WAS a Christian? Is it now false teaching, because he had no real understanding of the Gospel truth?<BR/><BR/>Had Dr. Beckwith been an ordained pastor (I gather he wasn't), if he in turn ordained other pastors at the seminary, would their ordinations be invalid, as coming from a non-Christian source? (Or are the ordinations actually from the seminary, and his agency irrelevant?)<BR/><BR/>If Dr. Beckwith had been struck by a car and killed a few years ago, would he have been saved, because he had not yet switched to Rome, or would he have been damned because he wasnt really born again, and just hadn't manifested it yet?<BR/><BR/>I know these questions sound like I'm baiting you, but I've been commenting here a while and I don't think I've ever been disrespectful, so please believe that I mean no disrespect now. But I would like to know what you think is the Calvinist approach to conversions/reversions of this kind. Is his apostasy retroactive, or was it there all along, or what?Joelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02238001380092215123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-84685045378836586752007-05-09T16:43:00.000-04:002007-05-09T16:43:00.000-04:00Steve, you quote the anathemas of Trent a lot, but...Steve, you quote the anathemas of Trent a lot, but have you ever read the actual canons? I don't ask that in a spirit of belligerence, but I'm honestly interested to know how much familiarity you have. The way in which you quote them (citing only the anathemas) suggests you haven't, as the anathemas are more like a summary and don't adequately represent the actual canons.Joelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02238001380092215123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1235580744017816042007-05-09T10:51:00.000-04:002007-05-09T10:51:00.000-04:00MarkThanks for the heads up on this... You can re...<B>Mark</B><BR/>Thanks for the heads up on this... You can read my questions to him <A HREF="http://www.biblicalfoundations.org/?p=118" REL="nofollow"><B>HERE</B></A><BR/><BR/>I appreciate you brother,<BR/>Campi<BR/>2 Cor. 4:5-7SJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-77206136306605419222007-05-09T09:37:00.000-04:002007-05-09T09:37:00.000-04:00Campi,You can also ask Dr. Köstenberger about the ...Campi,<BR/><BR/>You can also ask Dr. Köstenberger about the ETS statement since he was one of the signers. He's posted it on his blog: http://www.biblicalfoundations.org/?p=118<BR/><BR/>Several people have commented that this letter from ETS was weak. It's almost as if it's not that big of a deal to these learned protestants.<BR/><BR/>Sad,<BR/>MarkMarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01410144337505012175noreply@blogger.com