tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post6084330279204924838..comments2024-03-29T05:31:07.363-04:00Comments on CAMPONTHIS: YOUR WEEKLY DOSE OF GOSPEL...beware of the subtlety of spiritual treasonSJ Camphttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-59848956130085384642012-05-02T00:04:02.879-04:002012-05-02T00:04:02.879-04:00Steve,
Thank you for the thoughtful post.
I don&...Steve,<br /><br />Thank you for the thoughtful post.<br /><br />I don't believe it is possible to have perfect doctrine. Every time I've thought that I did, a few years (or months later), I realized some error I had. ;)<br /><br />But I wholeheartedly agree that it's important for people to actually know what historic Christian doctrine is: In particular, to know what the Gnostic cotntroversy was; to know what the Arian controversy was.<br /><br />I think you're right; a lot of stuff today boils down to one or the other of these.<br /><br />On this note, I observe that our approach to the Scriptures themselves often reflects these two controversies.<br /><br />Some think that the Bible is purely something to dissected using Western philosophical thought. I contend that these people are applying the Arian heresy to the Scripture. Just as Jesus is fully human, he is also fully divine. Similarly, if you read Protestant preachers from 100 years ago you will commonly find them saying things like, "It's important to find Jesus in every page of the Bible if you really want to understand it." The Modernism theological movement that has (IMO) infected a lot of Evangelicalism comes to mind here as an example of where this heresy can crop up.<br /><br />On the other hand, some <b>purely</b> approach the Bible as types, (pre)figures, symbols. I contend that these people are applying the Gnostic heresy to Scripture. By ignoring the human, rational, and yes philosophical nature of the Scripture, they want to find types and symbols to the exclusion of using the Canon as the measuring-rod for revelation that it was intended to be. Some charismatics (but not all) can tend toward this error.<br /><br />Having said that, as I think you are, I am constantly evaluating myself, encouraging brothers to evaluate themselves, and encouraging us all to grow. At various times in my Christian walk I have tended toward one of these errors or the other.<br /><br />But, thankfully, Father wants a RELATIONSHIP, and "he who began a good work will be faithful to complete it." There is grace.<br /><br />On a totally different, and equally practical point, I was wondering if you are aware of any Christian musicians who are dedicated to freely lavishing their music on the Body of Christ just as Mary lavished the aromatic oil on the feet of Jesus?<br /><br />Perhaps this could be done by publishing on the web freely, even including the original recording stems and encouraging others to remix, and publishing the remixes if they are better than the originals? It would be open source software principles applied to Christian music so it can be truly offered in freedom and charity, rather than in obligation--especially obligation to the world?<br /><br />Have you considered working with your contacts to help create something like this or are you aware of anyone already doing this? If so, could you connect me with them?<br /><br /><br />DaveDavidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15592754626868575354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-78396267201966451742007-12-01T02:04:00.000-05:002007-12-01T02:04:00.000-05:00John and JackJust to make some things clear, the w...John and Jack<BR/><BR/>Just to make some things clear, the writers or the Bible really did not have a choice in the matter of writing the word of God, at least in that they had surrendered their lives to God through Jesus Christ. So they were his instruments that God Chose to supernaturally pen his word! God did not superintend the word, He simply used the Patriarchs, Prophets and Apostles to write it. The word carried along in the Greek is φέρω phero, and it means to be driven by a force, like a leaf caught up in a swift current it has no control and is at the mercy of the stream, so were those that penned the word of God;<BR/><BR/>1 Peter 1:20, 21;<BR/><BR/>20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. 21 For kno prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. <BR/><BR/>The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (2 Pe 1:20-21). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.<BR/><BR/>While it is true that the Bible can be understood, it is the Holy Spirit that illumines the eyes of men. Just as Jesus was revealed to Peter by the Father to be the Christ, the son of the living God, so is the remainder of the word of God illumined to man. Otherwise the eyes of the un-saved are veiled by Satan 2Corinthians 4:3,4. God has revealed the mysteries of the kingdom of God to those that He has chosen, Mt. 13:11-16.gigantor1231https://www.blogger.com/profile/13329932791380481665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-92214119046045364672007-11-30T18:05:00.000-05:002007-11-30T18:05:00.000-05:00John,You're correct that Scripture contains differ...John,<BR/><BR/>You're correct that Scripture contains different genres that need to be approached in their own way. The Bible is a hard book - and yet not too hard to understand its message. Your issue seems to be trusting the Canon as we have received it. I would recommend studying the topic instead of conveniently rejecting those parts of Scripture that do not seem to fit your worldview. There are many good books out there that show how God has superintended the Scriptures we now have.Jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12304964445188703484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-45235681371649949972007-11-28T20:43:00.000-05:002007-11-28T20:43:00.000-05:00JohnAt the best you are very confused regarding th...John<BR/><BR/>At the best you are very confused regarding the proper interpretation of scripture, at the worst you are not saved at all and the Holy Spirit does not reside in you. We have conversed regarding this very topic a number of times and the fact is you ape the people that you listen to, Brian McLaren, Donald Miller and looks like a number of other false teachers as well. <BR/>I am still praying for you that one day God will actually open your eyes to the truthgigantor1231https://www.blogger.com/profile/13329932791380481665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-63710392413388154002007-11-27T23:10:00.000-05:002007-11-27T23:10:00.000-05:00I thought I was the only one who called it "Treaso...I thought I was the only one who called it "Treason" but that's just what it is.<BR/><BR/>It's just too bad that far too many believers don't see it that way........but I sure do!sbjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09456598798361927448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-88755227899144705182007-11-27T21:21:00.000-05:002007-11-27T21:21:00.000-05:00Steve,Thanks for reading and considering my commen...Steve,<BR/>Thanks for reading and considering my comments. That's more than many other bloggers will do.<BR/><BR/>In Timothy, Paul says that all scripture is inspired by God and useful for reproof, correction and training. I believe this - but in context.<BR/><BR/>At the time Paul was writing, there was no Bible as we know it. So to say that he was talking about our canon is a big stretch. How are we sure Paul knew he was writing "scripture" and not just a letter to a friend. He certainly never personally endorsed it as rising to that level of authority. In fact, he even points out a couple times that some of his ideas are his own - not necessarily those of Christ. <BR/><BR/>As for other scriptures that speak to the "Word of God" - that's not always used to mean the Bible. In the old testament, God spoke many times - outside of scripture. He spoke at creation. He spoke through prophets. He spoke through a donkey. It isn't math. To assume that every time we see "Word of God" that means "Bible" or even "Jesus" is incomplete. <BR/><BR/>Jewish scripture contains many types of literary forms. The psalms are songs - poetry. Stories are told with obvious symbolism and interwoven with Jewish numerology (40 days, 12 lampstands, etc). It's a rich and complex book. So why are we taught to read it like it's a Maytag dryer repair manual? "If it says it, I believe it!"<BR/><BR/>Well, scripture tells us to stone people who don't observe the sabbath. It speaks of cutting off the hands of a thief and gives instructions on selling one's daughter into slavery. Even in the new testament, we're told that women's heads should remain covered in the sanctuary and they should be silent in the presence of men. They should not teach nor bother with loads of makeup or jewelry.<BR/><BR/>It's interesting how the modern American church has weeded through there and picked what they like. Yes to the no teaching - but no to the head covering. They can wear makeup and jewelry. And we've decided it's a bad idea to sell them into slavery. And we like the old prohibition against homosexuality, but aren't really down with all the other prohibitions of the old law (planting two crops on the same field, etc).<BR/><BR/>My point is that scripture isn't math. It's not science. It's literature. We should read it like it's intended. Read poetry as poetry. Read history as history. Read allegory and parable as intended. It really is much more difficult and subtle than we give it credit for. Most people stop short because it gets hard. Studying the origins of scripture is messy and not near as neat and tidy as ameri-christianity with it's neat formulas and 1-2-3 step instructions.johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13265054986139606227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-55700771759618001472007-11-27T14:10:00.000-05:002007-11-27T14:10:00.000-05:00John,From your remarks I would doubt that you have...John,<BR/><BR/>From your remarks I would doubt that you have ever truly been conservative. Like most others you probably "believed" things because that is what you were supposed to believe, but on the inside there was never a personal understanding of the basis of that belief, and, therefore, no personal committment to that belief. You just simply went with the crowd. Maybe this isn't you, but I suspect it is. However, this seems to be the pattern with so many who have come out of traditional churches and now have adopted more of an emergent/liberal belief system.<BR/><BR/>Your comments about the Scripture are also telling. The Scriptures don't claim to be literal, but they are observedly literal. The Scriptures do claim to be true. Get a concordance or some good bible software and look up the words true and truth and see the multude of times those words are used regarding the Scriptures themselves, and since God is the ultimate author of Scripture this is what He is saying about His own Word. <BR/><BR/>Usually when someone makes the statement that the Bible contains the Word of God they are neo-orthodox in their theology. They will say that the Bible is inspired and that the Scripture becomes the Word of God as it interacts with them, or becomes truth as it applies to their own life. This allows them to pick and choose what they want to believe or apply and simply discard whatever they don't like. It also allows them to make the Scriptures apply however they want them to without regard for context, like your use of Matthew 7:1-5. <BR/><BR/>Finally, to validate what they are doing they will say they are followers of God the Jesus way. I have a feeling this may be where you are. But the reality is that unless you are following the Word, explicitly, completely, honoring it, exalting it, and submitting to all of it you can't be living as Jesus, because that is the way He lived so that He could fulfill all righteousness and be the perfect Lamb of God.<BR/><BR/>Just because a church is traditional, seeker, emergent, or whatever does not mean it is a good church. In fact there are no perfect churches, but no matter what the flavor the sole authority, guide, and arbiter of what is truly Christian is the Word of God. It is not traditions, programs, feelings, rules, or personal preference. <BR/><BR/>MorrisMorris Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18083884122271855154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-41583068028475446372007-11-27T13:35:00.000-05:002007-11-27T13:35:00.000-05:00Steve and John, I've enjoyed reading your exchange...Steve and John, <BR/><BR/>I've enjoyed reading your exchange and can see that both of you are clearly concerned for the condition of the contemporary Church. If we were to discuss this issue at length I would venture to say that we would agree that the preaching and teaching of a false gospel by contemporary pastors, preachers and evangelists is a root problem in American congregations. If he were alive, the Apostle Paul would surely think that some errant Galatians had somehow made their way to our shores and set up shop. Christine hits the nail on the head by pointing out that most contemporary Christians are biblically illiterate, another root problem. I will add that most contemporary American Christians will quietly swallow just about anything that is spewed from a pulpit and will not dare to confront a preacher of false gospels and doctrines, choosing to exercise worldly timidity and cowardice rather than Christian humility and meekness, another root problem. The responsibility for ignorance of the true Gospel and tolerance of false gospels that permeate our land sets squarely upon the shoulders of each individual believer. When we, as Christ's people, allow pastors, preachers and evangelists to stand in pulpits unopposed, week after week, as they proclaim something other than the biblical Gospel, then we are derelict in our Scripture-defined duties.LivingDusthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08720875895794590283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-71995607676137275392007-11-26T23:58:00.000-05:002007-11-26T23:58:00.000-05:00John:Thank you for your comment here brother.. I a...<B>John:</B><BR/>Thank you for your comment here brother.. I appreciate you taking the time to voice your views.<BR/><BR/>The issue of spiritual treason is not of slipping from perfect doctrine on all counts; on the contrary, spiritual treason is a defection and desertion from Christ Himself and the gospel that He has established. In the Apostolic tradition, this includes Paul strong language against those who adhere to a different gospel than the one he gave them.<BR/><BR/>The consequence is severe: eternal perdition - anathema.<BR/><BR/>THAT is what this article is about. <BR/><BR/>By historical, I am referring to two thousand years of what Christianity has always held to as essential in the gospel. Not a small period of time in American or Western culture.<BR/><BR/>I agree with you that many in our day do not even know what the biblical gospel is and the roots from whence it comes. Isn't that the concern here dear brother? How many attending our churches do not even hear or know the biblical gospel? How many therefore would be lost without hope--even though they think they believe in Jesus?<BR/><BR/>This is the Lord's stern perilous warning in Matthew 7:21ff. The broad way is marked Jesus; <I>"many will say to me Lord, Lord did we not... depart from you who practice lawlessness - I never knew you."</I> This is the danger isn't it. Many thinking that their view of Christ and what is necessary for salvation is sufficient when in reality it is worthy of only one thing - damnation. <BR/><BR/>Lastly you said, <I>"Certainly, the Bible contains the Word of God. But to say that everything in it is 100% perfect and literal is a silly claim that even scripture itself never makes. Reading it this way leads to all sorts of squirrelly doctrines."</I><BR/><BR/>A few concerns:<BR/><BR/><B>1.</B> The Bible just doesn't contain the Word of God IT IS THE WORD OF GOD! (Psalm 19:7-9; 2 Tim. 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:16ff). Who are you to decide my friend which parts are and which parts are not holy canon?<BR/><BR/><B>2.</B> Where do you think the Scriptures do not assert that what is contained in them is not 100% true?<BR/><BR/><B>3.</B> What leads to silly claims and false doctrine is not believing the Word of God and everything in it to be true, accurate, infallible and inerrant. Again, you don't go liberal by reading your Bible. The burden is on you John. What parts of the Bible do you think are not 100% true? Give me some examples that illustrate your erroneous claims?<BR/><BR/>That would be helpful.<BR/><BR/>Grace and peace,<BR/>Steve<BR/>Jude 3SJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-77030531646427289952007-11-26T21:30:00.000-05:002007-11-26T21:30:00.000-05:00Steve,I'm just curious - do you see any "spiritual...Steve,<BR/>I'm just curious - do you see any "spiritual treason" in the congregation you attend? Do you see any in yourself? Doesn't scripture tell us to remove the log from our own eye before pointing out the speck in our brother's?<BR/><BR/>I used to be very conservative. But I can't claim that anymore. In looking at my own life and the example of other conservative believers, I think there's plenty of spiritual treason in that camp as well.<BR/><BR/>That's why people are leaving traditional churches and looking for something different. <BR/><BR/>For too long, western conservative evangelical churches have tried to mix cultural-ism, commerce and Christ. Our churches are full of deluded people who think they're going to heaven because they prayed a prayer one time to "accept Jesus into their heart".We have paid ministers doing work that is the responsibility of every believer to do. Our building get bigger and our programs more sophisticated, but we're having less and less impact on the world around us.<BR/><BR/>And Steve - your admonition to stick with "orthodox, historical, biblical Christianity" is amazing! What about American Christianity is historical or biblical? When I read Acts, I don't get a picture of the American church. Most of us would have been excommunicated from THAT sort of Church.<BR/><BR/>And as for "historical", how many church-going evangelicals actually know ANYTHING about our history? For most of my fundamentalist friends, Church history began in the 1800s. When most talk about "historical", they really mean "traditional".<BR/><BR/>I echo your call for study of the scripture - but this will only work if we study them properly. To look upon scripture as God Himself is wrong and dangerous. Certainly, the Bible contains the Word of God. But to say that everything in it is 100% perfect and literal is a silly claim that even scripture itself never makes. Reading it this way leads to all sorts of squirrelly doctrines.johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13265054986139606227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-6988507498210726352007-11-26T20:34:00.000-05:002007-11-26T20:34:00.000-05:00Dear Steve,Thank you for your fabulous insight on ...Dear Steve,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for <I>your</I> fabulous insight on this issue. When my blog grows up, I want it to be like yours! ;-)<BR/><BR/>Your statement here reveals much truth:<BR/><BR/><I>I personally believe that the solution to error of this sort is to focus people's attention on the Word of God. Sadly, many still in mainline evangelical and reformed circles are biblically illiterate.</I><BR/><BR/>My question is, how do we get those who, unfortunately, are guilty of being biblically illiterate back into focusing on the Word of God and away from the heretical movements?<BR/><BR/>In my conversations with gay christians activists, they <B>always</B> find ways to rationalize their behavior and skew the Scriptures so badly that they make their beliefs appear superior to true Christian faith. They profess that they are "loving" and "tolerant;" while screaming that orthodox biblical Christians are "bigots," "haters," and "intolerant." I have shared their need for repentance numerous times. But it always seems to fall on deaf ears.<BR/><BR/>Your blog has become a daily visit for me. I truly appreciate your biblical knowledge and writing ability.<BR/><BR/>God bless you and your ministry here!<BR/><BR/>In Christ,<BR/>ChristineChristinewjchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18434229284833642438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-31791683313475978772007-11-26T14:26:00.000-05:002007-11-26T14:26:00.000-05:00Christinewjc:Thank you for your insightful words h...<B>Christinewjc:</B><BR/>Thank you for your insightful words here.<BR/><BR/>I personally believe that the solution to error of this sort is to focus people's attention on the Word of God. Sadly, many still in mainline evangelical and reformed circles are biblically illiterate. <BR/><BR/>We need the genuine article of truth proclaimed Sunday to Sunday to guard all our hearts and minds from slipping into error and destructive heresies.<BR/><BR/>Thank you again for you comment.<BR/><BR/>Grace and peace,<BR/>Steve<BR/>Col. 1:9-14SJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-46849330061163159652007-11-26T13:28:00.000-05:002007-11-26T13:28:00.000-05:00What a great and timely essay!! Thank you for this...What a great and timely essay!! Thank you for this wonderfully detailed post on how and why we are to beware of spiritual treason. It is so rampant today that many who do not know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior can easily be led astray by such heresy.<BR/><BR/>Some movements out there (like the gay "christian" movement) are very obviously steeped in error, heresy and apostasy. However, the Emergent church movement appears to be subtle enough in some cases that it can even fool those who have studied the Bible for years...if they are not careful. Your admonition to keep with orthodox, historical, biblical Christianity is paramount to avoiding such deceptions. The fact that many of these offshoots of true Christian faith <I>do not teach Jesus Christ and Him crucified</I> is the warning sign that flashes and tells us that a church, preacher, evangelist or teacher is headed in the wrong direction.<BR/><BR/>Fellow Christians who are not well versed in Scripture can be in danger of falling for the skewed theology out there which, like you stated in your post, has just enough "truth" in it that they could be fooled by it.<BR/><BR/>I thank God that His Word reveals to me the fact that the "elect" will not be fooled in this way.<BR/><BR/>Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.Christinewjchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18434229284833642438noreply@blogger.com