tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post115980140500715978..comments2024-03-18T07:16:30.591-04:00Comments on CAMPONTHIS: SALVATION IS OF THE LORD...the Ordo Salutis (The Order of Salvation)SJ Camphttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-19797643010100280142010-03-02T07:18:27.944-05:002010-03-02T07:18:27.944-05:00There is nothing that keeps wicked men, at any one...<b><i>There is nothing that keeps wicked men, at any one moment, out of hell, but the mere pleasure of God. <br /><br />By "the mere pleasure of God," I mean his sovereign pleasure, his arbitrary will, restrained by no obligation, hindered by no manner of difficulty, any more than if nothing else but God's mere will had in the least degree, or in any respect whatsoever, any hand in the preservation of wicked men one moment. </i></b><br /><br />From <i>Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God</i> by Jonathan EdwardsJadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17520023253755031167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-27455176157889198772009-03-31T09:22:00.000-04:002009-03-31T09:22:00.000-04:00The circular closed theory of history is a pagan c...The circular closed theory of history is a pagan concept from stoic philosophy in which the LOGOS of John chapter one was substituted for the logos of Zeus by the heretical church fathers who were never converted.<BR/>Armenianism is a modification of this and to be rejected as well.<BR/>God's kingdom is linear ever in expansion forever multiplying by the free wills of all who are bound by unfiegned love, God is in time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdO6DpMv_qk<BR/>wsearfos@hotmail.comUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00941399325991854198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-43541660005344285232009-03-25T17:37:00.000-04:002009-03-25T17:37:00.000-04:00DarrinPowerful my friend! Exactly.<B>Darrin</B><BR/>Powerful my friend! Exactly.SJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-5279241690480946362009-03-25T17:11:00.000-04:002009-03-25T17:11:00.000-04:00Ben, I'm sure you're familiar with the third artic...Ben, I'm sure you're familiar with the third article of the Arminian Remonstrance:<BR/><BR/>'That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free-will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do anything that is truly good (such as having faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the word of Christ, John xv. 5: "Without me ye can do nothing."'<BR/><BR/>It seems odd that many today who call themselves Arminians appear concerned about a doctrine that would show a regenerating act of God is necessary preceding faith or anything good in man.<BR/><BR/>I think perhaps you should call yourselves Wesleyans. The historic Arminians appear to be much more Calvinistic than the modern ones!Darrinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03569660529270085289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-2986137112657475972009-03-19T11:06:00.000-04:002009-03-19T11:06:00.000-04:00Steve,Ordo Salutis means "order of salvation" (as ...Steve,<BR/><BR/>Ordo Salutis means "order of salvation" (as your post even tells us), and not "order of decree". I was speaking of the Arminian ordo which you have misrepresented and most Arminians do not see secret eternal decrees in the Bible, so it is very strange that you would say that the Arminian ordo has reference to the order of a decree.<BR/><BR/>Now there is a logical order, and that logical order is important. You must agree that it is important or you would not make such a big deal of placing regeneration before faith, correct?<BR/><BR/>You say regeneration must precede faith because prior to regeneration faith is impossible. I say that justification must precede regeneration, because prior to justification regeneration is impossible (since one can't be given new life prior to being forgiven (which is foundational to justification), nor can someone receive new life logically prior to the wrath of God being removed (also an aspect of justification).<BR/><BR/>Prior to justification, sin remains and sin results in death. The sin problem must be dealt with (justification) before one can receive new life.<BR/><BR/>That is the Arminian position and that is why Arminians like me see the Calvinist ordo as theologically absurd (not to mention that Calvinists place regeneration prior to reception of the Holy Spirit, since the Spirit is received by faith, and there are further problems as well which I have outlined in various posts as my blog). So your accounting of the Arminian ordo is simply wrong.<BR/><BR/>God Bless,<BR/>BenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-63655391353459397042009-03-18T22:33:00.000-04:002009-03-18T22:33:00.000-04:00PaulSince sanctification is a 100% work of God, I ...<B>Paul</B><BR/><I>Since sanctification is a 100% work of God, I guess I'll just kick back and let him do it all. Right? I am an election guy as much as anybody else, but somebody explain to me why Christ would say "well DONE faithful servant" Is he really talking to us? Are we just potted plants in the whole process?</I><BR/><BR/>I hope I can help answer your heartfelt and important questions.<BR/><BR/>First of all, our salvation is a 100% work of God; by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, by regeneration of the Holy Spirit. We were dead in trespasses and sins; sons of disobedience, and by nature children of wrath. We could do nothing to merit our salvation. It is His gracious gift to us by His sovereign electing love (Eph. 2:8-9; 2 Tim. 1:9)<BR/><BR/>Secondly, however sanctification is never "just let go and let God." We do fully cooperate (by grace) in our sanctification (Titus 2:12). It is all of grace; but since we are born again, we can live for Him and are commanded to do so throughout most of the Scriptures.<BR/><BR/>Thirdly, those great words you quoted by our Lord from the parable of the talents in Matt. 25: "Well done good and faithful servant" is not speaking in regards to the root of our salvation - but to the fruit which comes from our salvation. He is speaking specifically to the lives that we have lived for Him after being born again (Gal. 2:20).<BR/><BR/>This is crucial. Though sanctification and justification are two separate things - that are inextricably connected. Sanctification flows out of being justified by grace through faith in Christ Jesus our Lord. We are made new creations in Him in salvation; but we are incarcerated in unredeemed flesh.<BR/><BR/>Here is the battle for all of us... Sanctification is the daily process by which we are conformed to Christlikeness. Ultimately, that will be fully realized when we are glorified and home with the Lord.<BR/><BR/>No one, not one, ever achieves sinlessness in this life. And those who claim to have reached that state are lying anyway and have thus sinned proving instantly that we have not arrived in this life.<BR/><BR/>God is able to complete that which He has begun... amen? That is our hope. But we also must press on everyday for Him though we sin everyday.<BR/><BR/>We are not fatalists; and nor should we ever be rigid legalists. We are to live by God's grace, learning to be content in Him and conformed to Jesus daily.<BR/><BR/>And finally - YES! We are potted plants... and by His grace we are to grow each day by His living Word, in the power of His Holy Spirit (1 Peter 2:1-3' 4:10; Eph. 4:12-14).<BR/><BR/>I hope this helps you some way my brother. Thank you for your thoughts here again.SJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-14274500995126717852009-03-18T21:28:00.000-04:002009-03-18T21:28:00.000-04:00It all sounds great, I agree 100% Now what? Im jus...It all sounds great, I agree 100% Now what? Im just anither grunt who has to get up in the morning and please my boss to God's glory. So what do I do with this info? Since sanctification is a 100% work of God,I guess I'll just kick back and let him do it all. Right? I am an election guy as much as anybody else, but somebody explain to me why Christ would say "well DONE faithful servant" Is he really talking to us? Are we just potted plants in the whole process?Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04610383351649422416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-56089757776442804382009-03-18T18:45:00.000-04:002009-03-18T18:45:00.000-04:00arminianperspectivesBTW, your 4) and 5) should be ...<B> arminianperspectives</B><BR/><I>BTW, your 4) and 5) should be reversed in the Arminian ordo. Justification would logically precede regeneration.</I><BR/><BR/>Not in the "Ordo" it wouldn't. Remember, this is in order of the decree of God - not a chronological timeline of events.SJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-75143609264444785492009-03-18T16:35:00.000-04:002009-03-18T16:35:00.000-04:00Nice Post, even though I don't think "Order of Sal...Nice Post, even though I don't think "Order of Salvation" is the best way of putting since much of what you see in Romans 8 is both past(in Christ), present(in conversion) and future (in consummation) and hardly be reduced to a systematic order, but I don't feel that was your intent as much as establishing the God-centeredness of Salvation in his initial and continual work in the believer.<BR/><BR/>I find Sinclair Ferguson discussion on this matter very enlightening from his book "The Holy Spirit".Casey Houghhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15776152191032426295noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-61479709549810165852009-03-18T14:40:00.000-04:002009-03-18T14:40:00.000-04:00BTW, your 4) and 5) should be reversed in the Armi...BTW, your 4) and 5) should be reversed in the Arminian ordo. Justification would logically precede regeneration.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-60292072933401005872009-03-18T14:23:00.000-04:002009-03-18T14:23:00.000-04:00I think the Calvinist ordo salutis is theologicall...I think the Calvinist ordo salutis is theologically absurd and hopelessly problematic. Here's why,<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://arminianperspectives.wordpress.com/2009/03/17/the-arminian-and-calvinist-ordo-salutis-a-brief-comparative-study/" REL="nofollow">The Arminian and Calvinist Ordo Salutis: A Comparative Study</A><BR/><BR/>God Bless,<BR/>BenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-48278366544319664582009-03-18T01:24:00.000-04:002009-03-18T01:24:00.000-04:00"What if He chooses not to know who will accept it..."What if He chooses not to know who will accept it and who will not?"<BR/><BR/>Can God choose to not be God?<BR/><BR/>I used to use this argument when training my daughter and defending the semi-autonomous free-will position that is much like Molinism. In any case it results in a diminution of God. That is, he does not know the end from the beginning. Even in the case of middle knowledge, God must know himself in the instantiation of any knowledge he has such that even the Molinism of Moreland falls. There cannot be a infinite possibility of outcomes, there is no reason. God only knows himself in the intant of the only reality that can be so that his foreknowing of those who will be saved is possible because he has predestined it and therefore knows it.<BR/><BR/>Even in the Arminian schema God knows exhaustively the future. However, in that schema God still has progressive knowledge at some time in eternity past.<BR/><BR/>Any way you look at it, whether progressive knowledge or diminution of knowledge with God progressively gaining knowledge with the actual passage of time, what eventuates is a God who is less than that of Scripture. God does not diminish, nor can he gain. Both become true when we propose that God has limited himself in knowledge because at first he is not omniscient knowing the end from the beginning, and second, if God is progressing he is god becoming and not God at all.<BR/><BR/>The curious thing about these alternatives is that the are found in the LDS and forms the grounding of "As God was so we are, as God is so we can become."<BR/><BR/>Even though I had been born-again for nearly thirty years, I believed the Arminian schema and as I said provided for my daughter a well defined apologetic until God openned my eyes to simple little verses: <B>,"It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end...Remember this and stand firm, recall it to mind, you transgressors, remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it....It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit...for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.</B><BR/><BR/>One cannot put out of mind that the "Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place" included every "free" action of everyone, or Christ might not have been crucified for our sins. To that add: <B>"None</B> of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." If God had allowed for one moment a thought not directed toward the ends he predestined, we would still be dead in our trespasses and sin.Strong Towerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13834108238546908018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-33215823988942267922009-03-17T22:58:00.000-04:002009-03-17T22:58:00.000-04:00Your doctrine of fatalism is pagan not christian.h...Your doctrine of fatalism is pagan not christian.<BR/>http://www.youtube.<BR/>comv=ecartzfbppm&feature=related/<BR/>There is only one gospel.<BR/> blip.tv/file/1815520 blip.tv/file/1807932<BR/>Wayne Searfoss<BR/>wsearfos@hotmail.comUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00941399325991854198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-33923196661296818812009-03-17T22:55:00.000-04:002009-03-17T22:55:00.000-04:00Your doctrine of fatalism is pagan not christian.h...Your doctrine of fatalism is pagan not christian.<BR/>http://www.youtube.<BR/>comv=ecartzfbppm&feature=related/<BR/>There is only one gospel.<BR/> blip.tv/file/1815520 blip.tv/file/1807932<BR/>Wayne Searfoss<BR/>wsearfos@hotmail.comUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00941399325991854198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-28581701298558820002009-03-16T23:48:00.000-04:002009-03-16T23:48:00.000-04:00Yes kind of Steve ..But i was under the impression...Yes kind of Steve ..But i was under the impression if your totally depraved you can't seek God?? But those two seem too,which confused me...<BR/><BR/>We spoke before about MLJ,so as you know Calvinism isn't entirely new to me...<BR/><BR/>In fact i've been troubled by some things about freewill of late,which i brought up over at CRN info...<BR/><BR/>Tim Keller's quote sumed it up perfectly <BR/><BR/>(((((((( “If you believe years and years ago in the begining of time ,God said i see human race is going to sin,so here’s what i’m going do go out and save a 1/4 of them…<BR/><BR/>People say Yuuckkk that sounds awful,..However what i believe is years and years ago God said, i see the human race is going to sin, therefore i will send my Son and give everyone free will….<BR/><BR/>But since He’s God, He immediately knows if He does it like that,immediately who will choose him…<BR/><BR/>So either way you have action of God in the deeps of time, that automatically consigns some to heaven and some to hell,so your in the same boat”)))))<BR/><BR/><BR/>I got some excellent replies (would be to long for here),but didn't entirely calm my concerns, maybe i need to read some more of the good Doctor ;-)..Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-30713429761931368672009-03-16T19:37:00.000-04:002009-03-16T19:37:00.000-04:00the Seeking discipleThank you for your comment and...<B>the Seeking disciple</B><BR/>Thank you for your comment and link. However, the link didn't take me to an article that would explain from your vantage point what it means to be dead in sin.<BR/><BR/>Could you perhaps fix the link and point me to a correct article of your doctrinal suasion so that I may learn a bit more of your views on total depravity from an Arminian perspective?<BR/><BR/>I would only offer to you as biblical proof for the reformed position the following texts: Psalm 51:5; Roms. 3:10-18; Eph. 2:1-3; Roms. 3:23; John 3.<BR/><BR/>Grace and peace,<BR/>SteveSJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-89978875983116467642009-03-16T19:32:00.000-04:002009-03-16T19:32:00.000-04:00AndyIf a person is totally depraved, was it pointl...<B>Andy</B><BR/><I>If a person is totally depraved, was it pointless for the Eunuch to be reading the scripture in Acts?..</I><BR/><BR/>No. Faith come by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. It will not return void.<BR/><BR/><I>Also Cornelious a person discribed by the word as " 10 a just man and one who fears God" a few verse before hes saved, so hes discribed as this, while still totally depraved seems oddddd...</I><BR/><BR/>That would be true of Cornelius as an one who feared God. But then the gospel was proclaimed to him, and the Holy Spirit fell upon them, and he believed along with his household and was encouraged to be baptized.<BR/><BR/>With Cornelius it was a matter of revelation - not depravity.<BR/><BR/>All people are depraved: conceived in sin; by nature children of wrath; etc. Until regeneration.<BR/><BR/>Remember, salvation is not an act of cooperation between God and man; it is the sovereign work of God to lost people.<BR/><BR/>Hope this helps to answer your questions. Thank you.SJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-79460618439813779042009-03-16T15:54:00.000-04:002009-03-16T15:54:00.000-04:00In order for the ordo salutis to be true for Calvi...In order for the ordo salutis to be true for Calvinism, the Calvinist understanding of "dead in sin" must be biblically based and proven as the other steps would logically follow. Here is a good Arminian answer to that issue:<BR/>http://evangelicalarminians.org/node/178The Seeking Disciplehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850752852586928341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-22847178864429496402009-03-16T12:33:00.000-04:002009-03-16T12:33:00.000-04:00ps im a different andy lolps im a different andy lolAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-57452973934439260262009-03-16T12:32:00.000-04:002009-03-16T12:32:00.000-04:00Hi guys could you answer me two questions?Though i...Hi guys could you answer me two questions?<BR/><BR/>Though i'm not a calvinist i respect a lot of people who are (mostly the dead ones, MLJ for instance)..<BR/><BR/>If a person is totally depraved, was it pointless for the Eunuch to be reading the scripture in Acts?..<BR/><BR/>Also Cornelious a person discribed by the word as " 10 a just man and one who fears God" a few verse before hes saved, so hes discribed as this, while still totally depraved seems oddddd...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1169454407907599262007-01-22T03:26:00.000-05:002007-01-22T03:26:00.000-05:00John,you evidenced my comment in your rattleing on...John,<BR/><BR/>you evidenced my comment in your rattleing on and on ONCE again witout ANY scripture to back up your unsubstantiated statements.<BR/><BR/>You called my statement to you CONTORTED that read: "ANYTIME someone argues doctrinal points without any scripture they fall into this category."<BR/><BR/>Are you kidding?! Let's see...you are going to assert something(s) to be true/sound doctrine, and without scriptural support (only your unsubstantiated statements) we should receive such as the truth?<BR/><BR/>I will not reply to anyone who continues to make a mockery out of "theological" discussions without referring to scripture. This is either lunacy or the height of arrogance, or both.dogpreacherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14126765017002042276noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1169185630981779392007-01-19T00:47:00.000-05:002007-01-19T00:47:00.000-05:00That would be "Thank God" above. Sorry. Pudgy fing...That would be "Thank God" above. Sorry. Pudgy fingers ;)johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13265054986139606227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1169148612527913942007-01-18T14:30:00.000-05:002007-01-18T14:30:00.000-05:00john,As I said, we must part company. Sorry that w...john,<BR/><BR/>As I said, we must part company. <BR/><BR/>Sorry that we couldn't converse.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1169141789184260872007-01-18T12:36:00.000-05:002007-01-18T12:36:00.000-05:00Pro 9:8 Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate...Pro 9:8 Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you; reprove a wise man, and he will love you.Denisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14770822482205703050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1169130782958974692007-01-18T09:33:00.000-05:002007-01-18T09:33:00.000-05:00JohnI wont quote to you any scripture reference in...John<BR/><BR/>I wont quote to you any scripture reference in that there are two things that you have said that tell me it would be futile, 1. You do not believe the word of God is perfect, even though it says it is. 2. You are lazy and you would not look them up anyway.<BR/>As for the particular laws that you quote out of context and that you do not feel nescessary to fully research, here is your answer; Part of the law that you quoted applies only to the levitical priesthood, not cutting the corners of your hair etc, and the other parts of the law you quoted are conditions of the covenants that God had between him and Israel..., if you fully studied the word you would find that information. As far as the application of the penalties of the law you forget that God is a God of mercy as well as judgement and that is consistent with the way he bares with Israel in the old testament and consistent with the way he still is today. As a gentile myself I do not nor I never did fall under the covenants that God directed toward Israel only, as for the wearing of poly blend clothes, once again a covenental law, but even for the jew the new testament/new covenant changed everything, jews could eat foods that used to be considered unclean, they could do things that under the old covenant they could not do because they were no longer under the old but under the new.<BR/>There is your answer, I would be willing to do the leg work and give you references to all of this but I know from your own words that it would do no good.<BR/>The word of God is spiritually discerned, all of it! This is what the word says. You flesh things out, literally and you made that clear in what you have said. You are lost and you need someone to guide you, I do not say this as a insult but as a statement of fact, Christ has extended his hand to you to guide. I will pray that he grabs you and brings light to your eyes.gigantor1231https://www.blogger.com/profile/13329932791380481665noreply@blogger.com