tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post5594699279061354911..comments2024-03-24T03:21:03.154-04:00Comments on CAMPONTHIS: Depart from Scripture... You Depart from God and a Reverence for Him...a few certain thoughts about the ECMSJ Camphttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-69553445010166159592008-01-03T16:38:00.000-05:002008-01-03T16:38:00.000-05:00I came across this post about the book Exiles by a...I came across this post about the book Exiles by an ECM poster-boy. thought you might find it interesting.<BR/>http://bunswbaptistpastorsforum.blogspot.com/2008/01/exiles-holiday-read.htmlGroseys messageshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09256060632754175527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-67795190032840608252008-01-01T11:11:00.000-05:002008-01-01T11:11:00.000-05:00John,I think you are missing the point. It's not ...John,<BR/><BR/>I think you are missing the point. It's not about church. It's about the Savior, Jesus Christ and the genuine gospel message.<BR/><BR/>I don't care how great an emergent church may be at "bringing people in," if they fail at presenting <B>the most important message on this earth - that being - to encourage people to come to repentance at the foot of the cross of Jesus.</B><BR/><BR/>In comparison, all other "efforts" on the part of <I>any church</I> is, as stated in Isaiah - "all of their righteousnesses are as filthy rags."<BR/><BR/>Pews of unsaved people are just as separated from God as those who have never set foot into a church.<BR/><BR/>Jesus himself told us:<BR/><BR/>Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?<BR/> <BR/>Mar 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?<BR/> <BR/>Luk 9:25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?Christinewjchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18434229284833642438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-25823004856564002482008-01-01T10:18:00.000-05:002008-01-01T10:18:00.000-05:00To Timotheos point:There was a time when most peop...To Timotheos point:<BR/><BR/>There was a time when most people in America were "churched" to some degree. They either went as kids or learned Christian morals and teachings through the culture - schools or TV or movies or whatever.<BR/><BR/>This is no longer the case. America is post-Christian. The vast majority of twenty-somethings and below are un-churched. They don't know our stories and are often live their whole lives without darkening the door of a church building.<BR/><BR/>This is one of the main reason I left my old paradigm and became involved in the "emerging conversation". THE OLD WAY OF DOING CHURCH DOESN'T WORK ANYMORE. By focusing on creating a Christian counter-culture, we've lost the battle for the culture at large.<BR/><BR/>So now we are missionaries in our own land. How does a missionary work? You learn the culture of those you're reaching. You meet them where they are - not just with doctrine - but with practical ways to improve life. Missionaries dig wells and plant crops at least as often as they preach sermons.<BR/><BR/>For everyone's insistence on lumping us all together, I have no direct connection to McLaren or Padgitt or anyone else - except that we all realize that the old way of doing business needs to change. You see many believers with different approaches trying to reach a lost culture - and the response of the traditional, evangelical establishment? Dig in and throw rocks at the missionaries. <BR/><BR/>Pretty sad.johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13265054986139606227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-76857678482473245022007-12-30T16:15:00.000-05:002007-12-30T16:15:00.000-05:00Good points. There is plenty to criticize about c...Good points. There is plenty to criticize about contemporary evangelicalism. The question is whether the emergents focus on the correct problems and have good solutions. As best as I can tell they don't. <BR/><BR/>The emergents tend to wallow in ignorance and seem to be proud of it. Yet scripture tells us that God wants us to know him (though we can't know everything about him). I was just noticing that theme in Colossians, as well as verse 2:18 which warns against those who delight in false humility (the emergents come to mind!).Neilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01351286913547309232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-10475012414707369812007-12-30T14:35:00.000-05:002007-12-30T14:35:00.000-05:00Hi Steve,I wasn't quite sure how to use the "creat...Hi Steve,<BR/><BR/>I wasn't quite sure how to use the "create a link" option, so here is a link to a post I did at Talk Wisdom called <A HREF="http://talkwisdom.blogspot.com/2007/12/truth-war.html" REL="nofollow">The Truth War.</A><BR/><BR/>I hope you will consider reading it!Christinewjchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18434229284833642438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-10191057545330158792007-12-29T18:26:00.000-05:002007-12-29T18:26:00.000-05:00Interesting conversation. I agree that the ECM ha...Interesting conversation. I agree that the ECM has some warped theology, but I think it comes from a sincere desire to avoid doing "church as usual" meaning the "Americanized" version of it. I think that can be a healthy thing. Their desire seems to be to rediscover the One True God underneath all the propaganda and personal agendas we've tried to paste to His image.<BR/><BR/>I think one of their primary problems is that they are attempting to marry a postmodern mentality with Christian theology instead of allowing their mentality to be transformed by God and His Word. I have been researching this movement for the last year and I like some of what I see, I just fear that they may find themselves neck deep in error before they realize where they are. If they aren't there already.<BR/><BR/>On another unrelated note: I have enjoyed your music since I was 13 and am thrilled to find you are doing this blog. I even saw you in concert in 1991 at Oklahoma Baptist University. My friend and I sang with you on every song (from the adudience of course). So if you remember two guys that were incredibly annoying that day by singing with you at the top of their lungs, it was us!<BR/><BR/>I can honestly say that when I became a follower of Christ, the Lord used your music as one of His methods for discipling me in my faith. Thanks!Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17048989486086458230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-21207314595498552192007-12-29T18:22:00.000-05:002007-12-29T18:22:00.000-05:00Great post. It is time for the Church to stand up...Great post. It is time for the Church to stand up for truth and declare that the emergent movement is not biblical Christianity nor does it represent the evangelical church.The Seeking Disciplehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850752852586928341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-86462280256364502892007-12-29T17:46:00.000-05:002007-12-29T17:46:00.000-05:00"And you must fit into their worldview of these th...<I>"And you must fit into their worldview of these things or be considered out of the conversation and outside the purview of Emergent Christianity. That breeds legalism."<BR/><BR/>"In their striving to figure out how to do church in our day, I think that they are creating their own legalism........."</I><BR/><BR/>I agree.<BR/><BR/>Just another trick pony in the vicious cycle of the legalistic "carousel." That's what seems so ironic. In the struggle to flee the immediate "turn-off" that any appearance of legalism or self-righteous religiosity might incur, the very situation attempted to be avoided has been re-created, if not exacerbated. In the quest for cultural/social relevance and presence, and the quest for non-invasive, non-intrusive evangelism, the movement seems to have reached an unstable, sterile position, teetering dangerously on the brink of elitism. <BR/><BR/>The supposition: "We must assimilate to communicate," makes a nice internal rhyme, but its eternal merit is questionable at best. Mark's account of the Gospel didn't indicate Christ's imploring us to go into all the world and.........assimilate. (Mark 16:15).<BR/><BR/>And tragically, those who refuse to tinker, tamper, adjust or otherwise "fine tune" the already flawless Gospel are perceived as bigoted, intolerant, and judgmental, and their refusal to compromise the truth is met with religious arrogance and covert attempts at ostracism. And the merry-go-round of legalism comes full circle. <BR/><BR/>(That's just my take, FWIW).littlegal_66https://www.blogger.com/profile/11385398360700890136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-32123493154565262672007-12-29T14:56:00.000-05:002007-12-29T14:56:00.000-05:00Perhaps it is simply because I've been reading and...Perhaps it is simply because I've been reading and learning so much about the ECM lately, I seem to have had more than my share of recent encounters with those who have embraced its many and varied representations. One in particular, with a family member, was shocking and disheartening. Her conversation was riddled with all the verbiage (or in an unkind moment I might be tempted to call it verbage) of the ECM and a nearly desperate desire not to be thought of as abrasive in any way when sharing her faith. But what I found so startling (and which you have pointed out so well) is how there seemed to be no similar regard for my views, and to which she spoke in such a pejorative manner, especially when noting my obvious misunderstanding of the Scripture verse which began our whole discussion (John 14:6). Do I have a thorough understanding and grasp of the original language like her Dr. Pastor does? If not, how could I presume to know better? All the while, The Message was laying on the table next us ... a clear departure from her past study habits and reading diet. The irony of her comment with regard to "original language" and her new Bible choice did not escape me.<BR/><BR/>She is dear to me. I'm so thankful for all I'm learning and for the many future opportunities I hope to be given to shine a light.<BR/><BR/>DebDebbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07722961380149692278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-57528253035171677702007-12-29T02:24:00.000-05:002007-12-29T02:24:00.000-05:00timotheosDevil's advocate played, noted, and appre...<B>timotheos</B><BR/>Devil's advocate played, noted, and appreciated.<BR/><BR/><B>Terry</B><BR/>Good thoughts here brother. The EC's theology is methodological by nature, not biblical, rooted in culture. THEN, they take their cultural paradigm's and convert them into their ecclesiology, Christology, missiology, and theology.<BR/><BR/>What is derived is not Scriptural, but certainly marketable. Again, it is the seeker sensitive movement with an attitude.<BR/><BR/>Lastly, it results in liberal socialism by making planetary concerns primary concerns. I.e. redemption is just not thought of in terms of saving souls, but in saving the environment. Everything from the fictitious Global Warming, to abortion, gay rights, war, stem cell research, euthanasia, etc. trump the eternal concerns of the gospel. In fact, their gospel is now defined chiefly by the environmental concerns of society rather then by Scripture.<BR/><BR/>Ergo, the social gospel has found new friends in the ECM; and by design it cannot help but be ecumenical as it reinvents the meta of language, religion, missions, church, and solutions to human rights issues. And you must fit into their worldview of these things or be considered out of the conversation: legalism.<BR/><BR/>This is their worldview. Don't drink the Kool-aid y'all.<BR/><BR/>Campi<BR/>2 Tim. 2:15SJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-82698349265492949932007-12-29T02:00:00.000-05:002007-12-29T02:00:00.000-05:00But, wait a moment. What is we aren't reaching th...But, wait a moment. What is we aren't reaching the unchurched? Shouldn't we reconsider what we've been doing?<BR/>Note: attempt at playing devil's advocate.Timotheoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16880788118136612744noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-54065608551370909682007-12-28T22:16:00.000-05:002007-12-28T22:16:00.000-05:00...[the EC says] "...the church will have little g....<BR/>.<BR/>.<BR/><BR/><I>[the EC says] "...the church will have little growth or impact if it doesn't adapt to culture..."<BR/><BR/>...their myopic view of the kingdom of God predisposes them to be more concerned with the temporal, than the eternal."</I><BR/><BR/>Steve,<BR/><BR/>Really good points. <BR/><BR/>The EC folks are amazingly like the old "Liberal" theology guys in their emphasis on social justice (a good thing in itself, of course), helping the poor (also a good thing in itself), etc.<BR/><BR/>The problem is that they emphasize those things, in a legalistic way ("Why aren't YOU doing what I'M doing? All you care about is getting people saved."), while de-emphasizing the Gospel, which is "the power of God for salvation for those who believe".<BR/><BR/>Sanctification, contrary to its common definition as "becoming more sinless", is really "understanding eternal truths more and more, and living accordingly". Thus ECers are stunting their own growth by their emphasis on the temporal. <BR/><BR/>(Of course, that's speaking of the born-again ECers. The unregenerate ones are, of course, even more legalistic, since they don't understand Grace at all.)Terry Rayburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00888533194435826837noreply@blogger.com