tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post3391710823174796516..comments2024-03-29T05:31:07.363-04:00Comments on CAMPONTHIS: THE SCREAM OF THE DAMNED...was Jesus really damned by God for our salvation?SJ Camphttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comBlogger157125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-30155846671570314952017-10-26T04:47:27.108-04:002017-10-26T04:47:27.108-04:00Here is a good read in connection with your post: ...Here is a good read in connection with your post: Henri Blocher, “Biblical Metaphors and the Doctrine of the Atonement.” <br /><br />http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/47/47-4/47-4-pp629-645_JETS.pdf<br /><br />Here is a snippet to whet appetites.<br /><br />In view of the titles the two first representations of the saving efficacy of the Cross have to cognitive import and doctrinal significance, it is strange (and revealing?) that critics of the traditional, evangelical, view, so easily fall back on other, uncriticized, metaphors. One reads of divine wrath having been “absorbed,” or “exhausted.” Such crude metaphors that redescribe divine wrath in terms suggestive of a physical quantum, of energy or matter, are devoid of explanatory power (why the alleged absorption or exhaustion?). They lack biblical warrant. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14251170465247268987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-6934275681948734152013-09-07T10:47:11.381-04:002013-09-07T10:47:11.381-04:00It seems that the ante-Nicene fathers largely agre...It seems that the ante-Nicene fathers largely agreed that Jesus was never forsaken of fellowship with the Father, but only forsaken to bodily death by the Father.<br /><br />Good article on that here: http://thefaithfulword.org/forsakenme.html<br />Eye in the Lenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10602590430397976486noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-5226496248740107522013-08-03T14:12:17.936-04:002013-08-03T14:12:17.936-04:00PS Spurgeon himself did teach what I'm saying,...PS Spurgeon himself did teach what I'm saying, by the way: What Jesus endured on the cross was worse than being damned to hell forever:<br /><br />"Can we at all imagine the state of mind in which our Lord was when He cried, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” No, that is not possible, yet I will try to help you to understand it. Can you imagine the misery of a lost <br />soul in Hell—one who is forsaken of God and who cries, in bitterest agony, “God will never look upon me in mercy, or <br />delight, or favor”—can you picture that sad state? Well, if you can, you will not, even then, have got anywhere near the <br />position of Christ—because that soul in Hell does not want God’s favor and does not seek it, or ask for it. That lost soul <br />is so hardened in sin that it never troubles about whether God would receive it if it repented—the truth is that it does <br />not want to repent! The misery that men will suffer in the world to come will be self-created misery arising out of the fact <br />that they loved sin so much that they brought eternal sorrow upon themselves. It must be an awful thing for a soul, in the <br />next world, to be without God, but, as far as its own consciousness is concerned, it will be so hardened that it will abide <br />without God, yet not realizing all that it has lost because it is, itself, incapable of knowing the beauty of holiness and the <br />perfection of the God from whom it is separated forever. Yet how different was the case of our Lord Jesus Christ when <br />upon the Cross! He knew, as no mere man could ever know, what separation from God meant!" Spurgeon<br /><br />http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols46-48/chs2803.pdfJoseph Randallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16595065822113855411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-13881546705523236882013-08-03T08:59:28.280-04:002013-08-03T08:59:28.280-04:00"Damned" doesn't even come close to ..."Damned" doesn't even come close to truly expressing what Jesus endured on the cross. He was more than damned. It was worse than damnation! <br /><br />1. He experienced the damnation of myriads of sinners that no man can count.<br /><br />2. He fully satisfied the infinite wrath of God in a finite amount of time because He Himself is infinite God! The damnation of one sinner will take all eternity!<br /><br />3. The damned in hell never knew God like Jesus knew God, and they love their sin and don't desire any relationship with God! But Jesus never sinned, perfectly loved and knew His Father!<br /><br />Oh my! Piper is not radical enough in his language of what Jesus endured! Jesus was more than damned! It was the scream of the more than damned by infinity! <br /><br />Oh Brothers! Let's learn how to the preach the cross rightly and not dishonor our great King Jesus by saying He was merely damned in our place!!Joseph Randallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16595065822113855411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-81824666332057873982012-04-13T15:32:35.594-04:002012-04-13T15:32:35.594-04:00Steve, I like how you get:
"Some initial que...Steve, I like how you get:<br /><br />"Some initial questions I have about this disturbing phrase are: <br />•is it biblical?<br />•does the Scripture speak of the substitutionary death of Jesus for the elect as Christ being damned? <br />•is this just cultural contextualization? <br />•is it emotionalism run amuck?<br />•is it sensationalized passion? <br />•shock the flock nomenclature designed to wake up tired ears? <br />•is this sound doctrine, theatrics, dramatics, blasphemy, or truth?<br /><br />Let's look briefly at this issue."<br /><br />The drama in our pulpits today.:(Estherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15601387460026713488noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-41654421400751620132010-03-26T13:39:52.957-04:002010-03-26T13:39:52.957-04:00I am writing dangerously because I only read about...I am writing dangerously because I only read about 20 posts and it seems that we are missing the obvious point that Mahaney and Piper are making. Namely, WE are "the damned", not Jesus! <br /><br />Mahaney and Sproul make it explicit that he screamed it "for us". That means that believers will never suffer the agony of hell because Jesus suffered "for us", we do not bear our sin because Jesus bore our sin "for us", we will never scream the scream of the damned, because Jesus screamed it "for us". He died my death. He suffered my punishment. He took my sin. He screamed my scream. This is nothing more than the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, which is another phrase not mentioned in the Bible, yet defended here (in a post decrying unbiblical phraseology no less!). <br /><br />Of course they know this is provocative! Jesus' death for us is a scandal. How do you convey that - truthfully - to a generation of Church kids who "know everything" and are shocked by nothing? This is good and faithful preaching. I have resolved to listen to this sermon every Holy Week.<br /><br />That does not discount your excellently written post. If you have already discussed this aspect of the sermon, please direct me to the post, so that I can see what people have to say.Granthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13997980646430994454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-51479319160174156102009-06-05T23:19:17.487-04:002009-06-05T23:19:17.487-04:00Nick's indifference is intriguing to me... May...Nick's indifference is intriguing to me... Maybe some us are too close to the issue to see it clearly?<br /><br />Anyway, I agree with him that Piper etc. make a good theological point, although I think the term "damned" is inaccurate. I will not defend Piper etc. on that point; however, I think the theological point represented by their misuse of the term is valid. I was afraid that I wouldn’t be able to articulate it clearly, but then I found that someone did it for me:<br /><br /><a href="http://stevenjcamp.blogspot.com/2008/07/scream-of-damned-was-jesus-really.html#c2112641076808808706" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">A. B. Caneday said</a>:<br />> The eternal Son of God did not need to endure God’s wrath eternally in order to redeem us, for he, bore God’s eternal wrath due unto us in the compressed time that he was upon the cross precisely because he is the Eternal One.<br /><br />The rest of the source paragraph addresses an issue which confuses me, but I’ve addressed that <a href="http://jesdisciple.wordpress.com/2009/06/05/did-christ-go-to-hell-when/" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">elsewhere</a>. I think the definition used here can be expressed as follows: Damnation is the dealing of God’s infinite wrath upon one’s spirit. As Caneday explained, Christ’s spirit was able to sustain this within a small period of time because He too is infinite; He never died spiritually because He is even more infinite than the damnation of all mankind.<br /><br />So I don’t think that Piper, Mahaney, and others who use such terminology are necessarily in theological error. They are, however, miscommunicating the center of the Gospel, and I think that’s something for them to correct. On the other hand, some of the writings quoted in those comments (Luther’s for example) may well be heresy; I haven’t taken the time to understand all of them.Chris "Jesdisciple"https://www.blogger.com/profile/00251874665739661016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-28591757157178279352009-06-05T23:11:52.376-04:002009-06-05T23:11:52.376-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Chris "Jesdisciple"https://www.blogger.com/profile/00251874665739661016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-70576231576547062542009-03-26T21:04:00.000-04:002009-03-26T21:04:00.000-04:00It seems very clear to me that Steve is disturbed ...It seems very clear to me that Steve is disturbed by what is in fact word games. Yes the phrase "Jesus was damned" sounds bad, but even Luther spoke like that:<BR/><BR/>"So then, gaze at the heavenly picture of Christ, who descended into hell for your sake and was forsaken by God as one eternally damned when he spoke the words on the cross, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani!” - “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” In that picture your hell is defeated and your uncertain election is made sure. (Luther, Martin. “Treatise on Preparing to Die.”)"<BR/><BR/><BR/>The problem is is that Steve you still affirm God poured out his Fury Wrath on Jesus in the place of the elect, THAT is the same as being damned! Undergoing God's eternal wrath is equivalent to being damned, the only 'difference' is that Jesus underwent this wrath in a finite span of time. That's Penal Substitution. You cannot say one way of saying it is blasphemy while the equivalent expression is affirmed. <BR/><BR/><B>What is most astonishing is how you are up in arms about the term "damned" not being in Scripture, yet Scripture never speaks of God's Wrath being poured out on Christ</B><BR/><BR/>That's what the Reformed Gospel teaches, and that's one main reason why I reject Sola Fide and am Catholic (which teaches satisfaction without needing PS).Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-4543685440206380092008-10-15T12:43:00.000-04:002008-10-15T12:43:00.000-04:00To take such a sentence and blow it all out of pro...To take such a sentence and blow it all out of proportion, without a fair comparison to the rest of Piper's teachings on atonement, seems grossly unfair to me. <BR/><BR/>It seems to me to be a simple case of misplaced semantics. One could take that sentence in many ways, and seemingly many have automatically assumed that Piper was deviating from the church's traditional view of atonement.<BR/><BR/>I agree that it certainly could have been worded differently, but I do not think from reading a good deal of Piper's teachings on the atonement that he meant anything like what this and other blogs are suggesting. <BR/><BR/>I have no connection with the man, but I do think he has been found guilty by assumption alone. I challenge anyone here to read the rest of his teachings on the cross and then come up with the same conclusion that this post has done.<BR/><BR/>Controversy is also created when things are taken out of context. I believe that is what has happened in this case.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14716974694013090620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-50322525752627176712008-09-28T16:16:00.000-04:002008-09-28T16:16:00.000-04:00Steve,You said, “The Scream of the Damned seems li...Steve,<BR/><BR/>You said, “The Scream of the Damned seems like language that is meant to provoke thought, solicit listenership, entice questions and entreat discussion rather than expound and exegete Scripture.”<BR/><BR/>Exactly. With all due respect, why have we bunched our undies over this? Christ was FORSAKEN BY GOD, BECAME A CURSE, BECAME SIN... but He wasn’t “damned”. Aren’t we parsing words here? Any reasonable observer, yourself included, realizes the phrase wasn’t intended to be a precise exegesis of any particular text(s). I’m not arguing for the phrase as particularly useful or helpful, but, in its context, it certainly isn’t heretical.<BR/><BR/>And why does Sproul get a pass? Because he used the word "with reservation"? What is that supposed to mean? Did Piper and Mahaney use it WITHOUT reservation? <BR/><BR/>I just don't get it. All this hair-splitting seems like a lot of unnecessary work.<BR/><BR/>God BlessJim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12361677490666203691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-80025433717389837862008-08-05T16:45:00.000-04:002008-08-05T16:45:00.000-04:00Thank you, Deb, for your response. I certainly do ...Thank you, Deb, for your response. I certainly do forgive you.Donhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09436503359863046095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-6456102786470703202008-08-05T16:08:00.000-04:002008-08-05T16:08:00.000-04:00"I don't appreciate your calling into question my ...<I>"I don't appreciate your calling into question my statement, as though you can read and judge the intentions of *my* heart."</I><BR/><BR/>You're right, my brother, I did jump the gun in assuming you knew you could delete your initial post, redact the portions you cited as inappropriate and re-post the amended comments.<BR/><BR/>Please forgive me to firing off like that. I did indeed <B>assume</B> something I ought not to have. Inappropriate on my part, very much so.<BR/><BR/>Reading over your lengthy posts here, I get your point: You have an issue with CJM and his 10 year focus on the cross.<BR/><BR/>In previous posts in this thread, I've already addressed my views regarding the shocking declaration that our Lord Jesus Christ was "damned" by God on the cross for our salvation.<BR/><BR/>From a systematic Biblical perspective, I am <B>adamantly</B> opposed to that declaration, FYI. I do <B>NOT</B> believe our Lord Jesus Christ was "damned".<BR/><BR/>May our Lord bless and keep you, my brother.Deb_Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03550673007910547814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-62196133551497409432008-08-05T14:04:00.000-04:002008-08-05T14:04:00.000-04:00Deb, I was unaware of the little trashcan tool unt...Deb, I was unaware of the little trashcan tool until you informed me of it. I appreciate that. I don't appreciate your calling into question my statement, as though you can read and judge the intentions of *my* heart.<BR/><BR/>I will use the trashcan tool to delete my comments, make edits, and re-post revised versions.Donhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09436503359863046095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-7408066273503280342008-08-05T13:44:00.000-04:002008-08-05T13:44:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Donhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09436503359863046095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-78283992399722909552008-08-05T12:00:00.000-04:002008-08-05T12:00:00.000-04:00"This is what I wish to retract from my first comm...<I>"This is what I wish to retract from my first comment, above:"</I><BR/><BR/>What a clever, disingenuous method for continuing to assert your position on CJ, Don.<BR/><BR/>If you truly wish to "retract" your judgments of CJM's motives/heart, there is a little delete trashcan at the very bottom of all of your posts in this thread.<BR/><BR/>Now, as for myself, if I wanted to redact a portion of one of my posts in a thread, I'd simply delete the <B>WHOLE</B> post and re-post it without the judgmental, offensive portions.<BR/><BR/>...but, then, that's what I'd do if it was really my intention to redact part of my post cause I was under conviction I'd spoken awry, virtually speaking. I wouldn't reiterate the inappropriate parts of my previous post by incorporating it repetitively into yet <B><I>another</I></B> post in the thread, but that's just me.Deb_Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03550673007910547814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-88864721088375109322008-08-05T11:50:00.000-04:002008-08-05T11:50:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Donhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09436503359863046095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-17334837891657650802008-08-05T01:06:00.000-04:002008-08-05T01:06:00.000-04:00If Christ's death was truly was substitutionary, i...If Christ's death was truly was substitutionary, in the sense that he bore what we deserved, the question becomes did we deserve to be damned?<BR/><BR/>Did our sins deserve damnation?<BR/><BR/>If the answer's yes, then this is what Christ must have endured if his death was substitutionary as you pointed out.<BR/><BR/>If our sins deserve damnation, yet Christ bore something less than damnation, then his death wasn't fully substitutionary.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, thought provoking article. That is my opinion, for what it's worth.Jesse P.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15208204274257809020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-25015632602061548152008-08-04T15:59:00.000-04:002008-08-04T15:59:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Donhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09436503359863046095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-62437025207164318892008-08-04T01:12:00.000-04:002008-08-04T01:12:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Donhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09436503359863046095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-2721536591386930562008-07-22T04:18:00.000-04:002008-07-22T04:18:00.000-04:00personally I see what they were trying to communic...personally I see what they were trying to communicate, that Christ suffered the wrath of God on the cross in our place. Historic Reformed writers back to Calvin have interpreted the 'descended into hell' in the Apostles' Creed as referring to Christ suffering the pains of hell on the cross (not afterwards), and in charity I assume that is what Piper and Mahaney are referring to. Certainly I doubt that they mean to side with Word-Faith heretics who deny that it really was finished on the cross. I see what they intended to say. As for the cross being the most sinful event in human history, it was! It was man crucifying God! Yet where that sin abounded, God's grace did much more abound, so that it was also the most glorious event in history!<BR/><BR/> Wouldn't use the word, but I won't condemn someone else for doing soHighland Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18205436472908741409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-49948566587132809252008-07-20T02:02:00.000-04:002008-07-20T02:02:00.000-04:00Steve,Since I don't believe in coincidences I must...Steve,<BR/><BR/>Since I don't believe in coincidences I must believe that God's providence brought me to the following piece from John Piper dated February 27th, 2005 which is entitled <B><A HREF="http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByTopic/78/204_Gods_Wrath_Vengeance_Is_Mine_I_Will_Repay_Says_the_Lord/" REL="nofollow">"God's Wrath: "Vengeance Is Mine, I Will Repay," Says the Lord"</A></B>.<BR/><BR/>I was researching this piece because it was linked from another blog as a resource for defending the Biblical truth of the doctrine of hell over and against the myriads who despise and reject this doctrine, but I was shocked to hear Piper make the statement near the beginning of this sermon that Jesus Christ was damned on the cross.<BR/><BR/>Now you'll need to listen to the audio because the statement didn't make it into the sermon transcript, but beginning at about the 1:18 mark Piper makes the statement; <B><I>"Jesus Christ perfectly righteous and perfectly damned on the cross in our place"</I></B>.<BR/><BR/>As I mentioned in my prior quote I'd never heard about this matter until today and suddenly I've stumbled across it twice now.<BR/><BR/>I pray that this matter will be earnestly and prayerfully resolved with all gravity.<BR/><BR/>In Christ,<BR/>CDCoram Deohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03504564435400500996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-5017844484985736282008-07-19T16:03:00.000-04:002008-07-19T16:03:00.000-04:00Steve,Thanks for taking the time to speak to this ...Steve,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for taking the time to speak to this important issue.<BR/><BR/>To be quite honest I hadn't heard about this flap until coming across a link to this article over at Christian Research Network.<BR/><BR/>There seems to be so much happening now within the broader professing church that it's difficult to keep up with the information explosion. <BR/><BR/>For example as of late I've been somewhat preoccupied with the recent dust up that's occurred due to Ray Comfort's appearance at a WoF heretics conference (for the third year in a row) and the scriptural fencing that's taken place over these speaking engagements.<BR/><BR/>Not to sidetrack this thread, but have you looked into or offered any commentary the Ray Comfort/WoF situation at all?<BR/><BR/>In Christ,<BR/>CDCoram Deohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03504564435400500996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-78723884227034283632008-07-18T23:39:00.000-04:002008-07-18T23:39:00.000-04:00Derek:Thank you for your comment in this discussio...<B>Derek:</B><BR/>Thank you for your comment in this discussion. <BR/><BR/>One brief point of clarification for you: in Romans 8:3, sin is what is being condemned, not Jesus Christ.<BR/><BR/>SteveSJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-15389487164135771432008-07-18T21:06:00.000-04:002008-07-18T21:06:00.000-04:00Steve, I appreciate your wrestling with this issue...Steve, I appreciate your wrestling with this issue. The word 'damn' carries a lot of cultural baggage, and obviously has a multiplicity of meanings. <BR/><BR/>As far as this being 'biblical,' the word translated 'to damn' in Rom. 14:23, which is related to the word used in 2 Thess. 2:12, is used of Jesus in Rom. 8:3. <BR/><BR/>I'm not sure if the argument is about whether Jesus experienced the full brunt of an eternal hell in finite time or not, but maybe it should be.xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01342034767416095862noreply@blogger.com