tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post117107895392919175..comments2024-03-18T07:16:30.591-04:00Comments on CAMPONTHIS: Don't Get Sentimental... Truth MattersSJ Camphttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-52972455785723725022010-05-27T12:03:15.498-04:002010-05-27T12:03:15.498-04:00Hi Steve...new to blogs...could you please tell me...Hi Steve...new to blogs...could you please tell me how I could "sign up" to receive your blog posts???<br />Thanks!!! ~BeckyBeckyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11435930482677999979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-47467325093654337442010-04-13T12:47:18.514-04:002010-04-13T12:47:18.514-04:00Quoting R.C. Sproul - "We take comfort that m...Quoting R.C. Sproul - "We take comfort that mystery is not a synonym of contradiction." - (The Consequences of Ideas) Amen!Debbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07722961380149692278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-45387559212318899962007-02-17T22:24:00.000-05:002007-02-17T22:24:00.000-05:00Then we'll leave this conversation praying for eac...Then we'll leave this conversation praying for each other. That's a good way to leave.johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13265054986139606227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-29271787451559966172007-02-17T21:14:00.000-05:002007-02-17T21:14:00.000-05:00JohnI never said I had it all figured out, I have ...John<BR/><BR/>I never said I had it all figured out, I have said though that the truth of the scripture is clear and accurate to those that have the Spirit of God. Does it irritate you if someone claims to know the truth John? Do you find it upsetting if their faith is sure? Perhaps God has done some amazing things in their life to make them the way they are. If you think I am deceived or in pride you must be on your face praying for me..... right John?<BR/>The faith that I have is built on the Word of God and there is nothing that I have gained from it that I can boast of myself. I do not doubt the word of God because it has proven itself true to me on more than one occasion. <BR/>The conversations that I have had with you have not been sport for me but I actually care about you John and I am concerned for the condition of your soul! As I have said I am praying that you would come to a full knowledge of the truth. I would hope that is what you want as well.gigantor1231https://www.blogger.com/profile/13329932791380481665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-28556207282570456002007-02-17T15:13:00.000-05:002007-02-17T15:13:00.000-05:00Gig,You obviously think you've got everything figu...Gig,<BR/>You obviously think you've got everything figured out. Perhaps you do. Maybe it's certainly. Maybe it's pride. Maybe God has made the great mysteries of the universe simple to you. Or maybe you're fooling yourself and believing a shallow, simplistic doctrine cobbled together by men who want to formulize what was never meant to be formula. <BR/><BR/>Only God can see your heart.<BR/><BR/>I thought I had it all figured out once, but I'm not so sure anymore. Maybe I'm deceived. Or maybe I've had the blinders removed. Maybe I'm chasing after the wind and making things much more complicated than they have to be. Or maybe my questioning of the underpinnings of our religious tradition is appropriate and Spirit-led. <BR/><BR/>Only God knows my heart as well.<BR/><BR/>So this leaves us at a place where we must agree to disagree. I'm sure you doubt my salvation just as I tend to doubt that you really have everything figured out. But at the end of the day, it's what God has done for us - His grace - that saves us - not what we have or haven't figured out. Thanks to the mercy of our Great God, I trust we will share in the embrace of our Savior one day. Then, all these words will be meaningless.<BR/><BR/>Peace.<BR/><BR/>Incidentally, I suggested that someone read Barth because they suggested I read Spurgeon. I'm not gonna rush right out and pick up Spurgeon and faster than I would Barth - that's not how I roll. I tend to read and understand on my own as much as I can. <BR/><BR/>I was simply saying that if one is going to use commentaries, one should read a wide spectrum and give them all a fair hearing instead of camping on the far right or the far left all the time. <BR/><BR/>Buying into a commentary without reading other alternatives is poor scholarship and leads to unbalanced doctrine.johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13265054986139606227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-73558322111239180332007-02-17T12:50:00.000-05:002007-02-17T12:50:00.000-05:00JohnIf you have never read Barth, then why do you ...John<BR/><BR/>If you have never read Barth, then why do you recommend that we read up on him? Seems like a odd recommendation since you have not read him.<BR/><BR/>As I have said before John, it is not about right or wrong it is about truth. You seem to want to play around with the chaos of things, you think for some reason that to admit the possibility of error with regards to the word of God is somehow a virtue. You feel that God is unknowable and, from what you say, He does not want to be known! The Bible does not teach that about Him, He is a personal God who cares and wants to be known by those who seek Him. He throws you curve balls? He is always straight with those He has chosen and loves. Don't get me wrong here, He is still eternal and a mystery but He makes Himself known to those that are seeking Him in portions that we finite humans can handle.<BR/>You choose not to believe in a literal 7 day creation. What is the big deal? Merely that the book of Genesis is the foundational book of the Bible and by tearing it down everything else falls. Evolution as evolutionist define it basicly denies the existance of God or at least the existence of a caring and personal God. To side with evolution is to even deny the evidence that exists and the laws of science themselves, you have to almost be crazy to follow it, it is beyond reason, just like Stephen J. Gould was beyond reason in the end!<BR/> As I said before, I worked as a biologist for a number of years and I worked beside some staunch evolutionist and some staunch creation evolutionists, old earth type people. To be honest with you they were all a mess both personally and mentally, so why would I want to be like that? <BR/><BR/>Does the trinity confuse me? No. Why? Because I have accepted God as the eternal all powerful God that He is and I understand that He can do things that are completely beyond me and you, He is God! No, God is not a formula but He has laid things out in simple terms for us so we can know Him, He has even said that if we just look at the world around us we will see the evidence of Him. The qualifier to understanding God is having the Spirit of God. If you do not have the Spirit of God you will not understand him and be in a state of confusion. <BR/><BR/>I have to be honest with you John, I hear you say you beleive in the Savior and our need for Him and that is a good thing in and of itself. You make me wonder though by the things that you say if what you believe is just a mental ascent without the spirit, I do not know and I will not make that judgement. I will say this though, the fruit I see from the things you say is confused and many times contradictory. I am sure that you have been told this before! In the end there is truth and that truth is found in God through Jesus Christ revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. I am praying that God will lead you into that truth. While I agree with you about reaching out to the poor, clothing, feeding etc... our methods differ based on truth. You deliver them the food and blankets and hope that somehow you can earn the right to present your gospel, I am not clear here exactly what that entails. I believe that with the food and blankets we should deliver the Gospel regardless of the feelings of the receivers and when the food and blankets run out continue with the Gospel, it is the only answer.gigantor1231https://www.blogger.com/profile/13329932791380481665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-14332994526579295382007-02-17T05:28:00.000-05:002007-02-17T05:28:00.000-05:00I personally have never read Barth. I've also been...I personally have never read Barth. I've also been told that many of my ideas on how to live the faith in our generation remind people of Barna. Haven't read him either.<BR/><BR/>My point is that there are people who sincerely study scripture and come to different conclusions that you do. I don't know why you can't accept that. At the end of the day, I'm right there with you in our need for a savior and the position of Christ as our only hope. <BR/><BR/>So what if I don't believe in a literal 7-day creation? So what if you politically conservative and I'm politically liberal? So what if I think it's important to serve the poor and you think it's important to preach to the poor? Why does that have to make one of us explicitly wrong? What if we are both truly walking the path God has for us and we're just in different places?<BR/><BR/>As for the whole confusion thing - since when was trying to understand the mysteries of the universe and the complexities of our creator supposed to be easy?<BR/><BR/>Now I know you're about to quote the "God is not the author of confusion" verse to me, but I think you're pulling it out of context. Does this verse REALLY mean that we'll never be confused by anything? <BR/><BR/>Tell me honestly that the idea of a triune God - 3 separate persons yet one person - doesn't confuse you at least a little. <BR/><BR/>Tell me it doesn't confuse you why there are Christian children in Africa who don't have enough to eat - despite the "promise" of scripture that God will take care of that.<BR/><BR/>God isn't a formula to be figured out or a commodity to package. He's not bound by our ideas or understanding of Him. It's silly to even think for a second we can begin to wrap our mind around Him and the things He does.<BR/><BR/>God is not bound by scripture. He is not stuck in time 2000 years ago. He is not stuck in jewish culture or 1950s culture. While His character does not change, He seems to often change methods.<BR/><BR/>So just when you think you have God all figured out, He throws you a curveball. <BR/><BR/>The pursuit of God is NOT easy. It is NOT for people who want to turn their brains off. It is not an exercise in pleasing other people or in following other teachers mindlessly.<BR/><BR/>If we seek Him, we will find Him. But we will have to do it with all our hearts and minds and strength.johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13265054986139606227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-50493411245793463032007-02-17T01:06:00.000-05:002007-02-17T01:06:00.000-05:00JohnDo you believe that the Holy Spirit, the Spiri...John<BR/><BR/>Do you believe that the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, would lead you into the world of confusion that you are living in? No offense intended here but you vascilate from one point of cofusion to another. Your liberal theologians wont help you, I am actually studying some of them now. If you believe that there is a God and He is all powerful and sovereign He can and will lead you into all truth apart from any teacher, fundamentalist or liberal.<BR/>I have related the conversations that we have had with my pastor and I find it interesting that the person he said you sounded like you shaped your beliefs after was Karl Barth. I pray that you find real truth someday, it actually does exist!gigantor1231https://www.blogger.com/profile/13329932791380481665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-63078728305014449622007-02-16T22:35:00.000-05:002007-02-16T22:35:00.000-05:00mcaugust,Thanks for the link. The thing is that I ...mcaugust,<BR/>Thanks for the link. The thing is that I know what the commentaries say. I study using my grandpa's bible - a vintage 1950s Ryrie Study KJV. So my footnotes reflect that thinking. I come from a fundamentalist background, so I know the drill.<BR/><BR/>The problem is, as some point I got tired of doing to acrobatics. I decided to stop looking at a duck and calling it a goose.<BR/><BR/>I started with some pretty minor ones. Then, you get into the heavy stuff. Many scriptures talk about being forgiven for our sins and indicate we will continue sinning. Yet verses in Hebrews seem to indicate that if we continue sinning after we are initially forgiven, there is no longer forgiveness for us.<BR/><BR/>Then, there are deep philosophical questions about whether God allows evil, causes it, creates it.<BR/><BR/>So I'm not just going to play wheel of commentary any more. I could certainly go there and pick one that I can live with, but I don't think that's the way we're supposed to do it. That takes away the ability of the Spirit to guide us. It take the richness and beauty of scripture and turns it into VCR instructions. "Just do a, b and c and you'll get x, y and z".<BR/><BR/>At the risk of getting labeled gnostic, I'm convinced that we have tried to take the mystery and un-knowability of our mighty creator and package it for easy consumption. We have bookstores full of books like "God's promise book" or "5 Steps to be more Christlike". I just am not feeling that anymore. It isn't right. <BR/><BR/>The search for God is one that will require our whole heart and mind and strength. <BR/><BR/>Half-hearted attempts that consists of reading the all-conservative theologians club and picking the one that least offends my sense of integrity falls short.<BR/><BR/>Commentaries can be good to help think things through, but only if you read a good cross-section. If you only read conservative thinkers like Spurgeon, MacArthur or Colson, you're only seeing things from one angle. Reading some liberal thinkers - Barth, Martin Luther King, Jr., Donald Miller, etc - will give you a different perspective. <BR/><BR/>You may not agree with anything they say, but you should really read them as well. Otherwise, you're feeding yourself a skewed version and you can't really make an educated decision.johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13265054986139606227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-75325877005097257772007-02-16T21:49:00.000-05:002007-02-16T21:49:00.000-05:00John-I highly recommend that you check out some go...John-<BR/>I highly recommend that you check out some good solid commentaries on the Bible (I personally like the old guys like Spurgeon, Henry, Hawker, etc) to address your concerns about the discrepancies that you see.<BR/><BR/>For example, I briefly read up on your problem in Acts 9 and 22. There really is no difference between the two when you fully understand what is being communicated in the account. In Acts 9:7 is the account of the actual event of Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus. The men traveling with Paul heard a voice, but could not hear (understand) the words. So in Acts 22:9 when Paul is recounting the events that took place in his conversion, he says that the men did not hear the voice. They did not hear the voice in the way that Paul distinctly heard the voice. Christ was speaking to Paul and only Paul because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Rom.10:17). IOW, there is no discrepancy in this part of Scripture (nor in any other part).<BR/><BR/>I have <A HREF="http://donfortner.com/bulletin_articles/topical/h_through_l/Holy%20Scripture-The%20Infallible%20Word%20of%20God.htm" REL="nofollow">linked</A> a very short article on the infallible, inspired, inerrant Word of God that I encourage you to read.<BR/><BR/>I truly hope this helps.mcaugusthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195951915939762962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-68244231033811430332007-02-16T16:52:00.000-05:002007-02-16T16:52:00.000-05:00Steve,I believe that the bible contains God's Word...Steve,<BR/>I believe that the bible contains God's Word. It is the source of authority I use for the basis of living life. Just because I don't believe it's "perfect" doesn't mean that I don't trust its authority.<BR/><BR/>As for how I decide what's perfect vs. imperfect - it's not like I go through with a black sharpie crossing out stuff.<BR/><BR/>But when I come across things that don't make sense, I think them through, pray about them and ponder. I don't gloss over them anymore (I used to be a good fundie). Ultimately, I try to let the weight of scripture and the Spirit lead me to a correct understanding.<BR/><BR/>As to errors, I'm not sure where to start. Of course there are the BIG ones (God is perfect good, yet He created satan who is evil, so did God mess up or did He willfully create evil?) But those will just make all our brains hurt.<BR/><BR/>So, I'll do a few straightforward ones:<BR/><BR/>Matt 27:9-10 cites an old testament passage and says it comes from Jeremiah. But it really came from Zechariah (11:12-13).<BR/><BR/>There are errors in the geneological lists in Matt 1:1-17. Verse 17, says ‘from Abraham to David fourteen generations, and from David to the Babylonian exile fourteen generations, and from the Babylonian exile to the Christ fourteen generations.’ But when we actually count how many generations there are listed in the preceding verses, we see that the numbers don't jive - even within one verse. <BR/><BR/>That's not saying anything about the theological and logical maneuvers you have to perform to get the geneologies of Luke and Matthew to jive.<BR/><BR/>Read Acts 9:7, then Acts 22:9. Both are accounts of Paul's conversion, but they don't match. In one, Paul's companions hear the voice and in the other, they don't.<BR/><BR/>These are just one of many. And much of the struggle is one of logic and philosophy. But whenever I bring that up, everyone jumps on me and reminds me that "His ways are not our ways".<BR/><BR/>I agree with that to some extent. Certainly, a pot will never understand its potter. But, I don't believe we should fear thinking and pondering on these things. <BR/><BR/>Too many times in the past, I buried my concerns in the sand. I just can't do it anymore. <BR/><BR/>For better or worse, I will press in to the mysteries of God. I ask for His guidance and the humility required to follow Him.johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13265054986139606227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-2461250011489142822007-02-16T12:21:00.000-05:002007-02-16T12:21:00.000-05:00I want to thank you all so far for this thread on ...I want to thank you all so far for this thread on the authority and veracity of God's Word.<BR/><BR/><B>One final question for you John:</B><BR/>I have asked you before, but you haven't answered as of yet. Could you take a few minutes and let me know what divine source of authority do you then derive your views? By what authority to you determine what parts are perfect vs. imperfect? (your words).<BR/><BR/>None of us here worship a book; but it is through "that book" that God has given to us to know Him so that we may be equipped for all matters pertaining to life and godliness.<BR/><BR/>Can you give me any passages from the Bible that you think are in error?<BR/><BR/>SteveSJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-57355377364092459372007-02-15T20:27:00.000-05:002007-02-15T20:27:00.000-05:00JohnIt is unfortunate that you can not answer some...John<BR/><BR/>It is unfortunate that you can not answer some of the questions that I have posed. As far as this being off task with this blog it is right on task. We were dealing with those false systems that Steve listed, in this case the social gospel.gigantor1231https://www.blogger.com/profile/13329932791380481665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-18305079592338987852007-02-15T20:19:00.000-05:002007-02-15T20:19:00.000-05:00OK. This is probably it for me. We're a long way f...OK. This is probably it for me. We're a long way from where we started on this post.<BR/><BR/>"OK, here is the crux of it, the bible says that it is truth; it says that it is God’s word, Christ is God’s word, and Christ is truth."<BR/><BR/>So...<BR/><BR/>bible = truth = God's word = Christ = truth!<BR/><BR/>Why didn't I see it before?<BR/><BR/>So a book = truth = Christ=God<BR/><BR/>So God = a book?<BR/><BR/>It's all so clear to me now!<BR/><BR/>The bottom line is that we're just going to disagree. You're not going to understand how I can put faith in the bible that I believe is somewhat imperfect, and I'm not going to understand why you need a perfect book or your faith crumbles.<BR/><BR/>May God meet each of us where we're at and leads us into all truth.<BR/><BR/>Peace.johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13265054986139606227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-60233331701213974042007-02-15T12:17:00.000-05:002007-02-15T12:17:00.000-05:00JohnYou said;“I would ask you who told you that th...John<BR/><BR/>You said;<BR/><BR/>“I would ask you who told you that the bible was inerrant. The bible does not claim inerrancy. As a book of writings scattered across hundreds of years - with different author, audiences and literary styles, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for the bible to claim its own inerrancy. The bible as we know it simply did not exist when its authors (or penners) were writing.”<BR/><BR/>OK, here is the crux of it, the bible says that it is truth; it says that it is God’s word, Christ is God’s word, and Christ is truth. If the word is truth then it can not error in one place, I am not talking about syntax here or punctuation or a blot on a page, otherwise it is not God’s word because it is not truth. Truth and error are polar opposites and the bible claims to be truth in a number of passages, I am sure you know this! In a number of passages the Bible also says that it is perfect, so now we have it saying that God’s word is perfect and it is truth. <BR/>From what you have said before you do not believe the Bible is God’s word, at least in its entirety. You said it is poetry, history, myth. I do not know what you have done as far as studying the word of God but it appears by your responses that you choose whatever translation suits your needs and or desires. You have also said that you are lazy when it comes to looking things up and so it is difficult to have logical discussions with that in mind, this makes me think of Eph. 4:14. I am not pointing this out as a point of condemnation but to simply show you where I see you coming from. <BR/><BR/>You said;<BR/><BR/>“But at the end of the day, it was still penned by men. I believe God's thoughts are perfect. How can God's perfect thoughts be encapsulated in the miniscule thinking of men and laid out in total revelation in a couple thousand pages?”<BR/><BR/>You say that the Bible was penned by men so that would have to mean you disregard 2 peter 1:21;<BR/><BR/>“For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.”<BR/><BR/>The word carried in the Greek means that the Holy Spirit pushed or drove the men that penned the bible, in other words He had control of every stroke of the pen. So, the men of the Bible no more wrote the word of God then did my keyboard compose this reply.<BR/>“How can God’s perfect thoughts be encapsulated in the miniscule thinking of men and laid out in total revelation in a couple thousand pages?” The word of God does not tell us that it has told us everything but it is exactly what we need for our time spent on this earth. You are right in thinking that our mind could not contain it all, we are limited and finite and He is eternal. <BR/>God understands who we are, He understands every detail of the ones He has made, with this in mind don’t you think that God knows how to deliver us His thoughts? To say otherwise limits God in as far as how He is willing to function in your life. Obviously, God is limited in no way but we are in every way.<BR/><BR/>You said;<BR/><BR/>“If anyone's faith is completely tied to their belief in inerrancy of the bible, then I would caution you not to go there. I'm not out to ruin anyone's faith.”<BR/><BR/>On one hand you say that you are not out to ruin anyone’s faith, but on the other hand you are saying that the Bible is errant and you can not trust it. The true Christians faith is intimately tied to the word of God, it is 100% of what his faith is based upon! So when you say you do not mean to ruin anyone’s faith but you undermine the reliability of the scriptures what are you trying to do? Also, what other sources or places do you think should be used to find out who God is and understand what His perfect will is for mankind? What other sources do you use? You caution not to go there with regards to the realm of the inerrancy of the Bible, I believe I have heard someone say something just like this before, I will let you figure out who that is.gigantor1231https://www.blogger.com/profile/13329932791380481665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-53195715324029336612007-02-14T21:25:00.000-05:002007-02-14T21:25:00.000-05:00Steve, you said:"However, Genesis is not parable, ...Steve, you said:<BR/>"However, Genesis is not parable, metaphor, metonymy, synecdoche, simile, allegory, etc. It is meant to be taken at face value--God created all things in six literal days (the morning and the evening)."<BR/><BR/>You say this like it's a fact when it simply is not. That's your take on it and I respect that. Many thoughtful, sincere people see it that way.<BR/><BR/>Many others don't - among them some of the greatest theologians who ever lived. Calvin, Luther, Origen, CS Lewis - all read the bible at face value.<BR/><BR/>I would ask you who told you that the bible was inerrant. The bible does not claim inerrancy. As a book of writings scattered across hundreds of years - with different author, audiences and literary styles, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for the bible to claim its own inerrancy. The bible as we know it simply did not exist when its authors (or pen-ers) were writing.<BR/><BR/>Don't get me wrong. I love the bible. I believe it is God's Word. I believe that it's the most important single book of teaching for a Christian and we should read it and study it with reverence and awe.<BR/><BR/>It's useful, beautiful, relevant and full of wisdom. It's alive - God can use the Spirit to make it come alive for us.<BR/><BR/>But at the end of the day, it was still penned by men. I believe God's thoughts are perfect. How can God's perfect thoughts be encapsulated in the miniscule thinking of men and laid out in total revelation in a couple thousand pages? <BR/><BR/>I will not, however, worship a book. I will not put it above God.<BR/><BR/>If you're interested, I posted another link on my blog regarding inerrancy at http://bechruchsa.blogspot.com. If anyone's faith in completely tied to their belief in inerrancy of the bible, then I would caution you not to go there. I'm not out to ruin anyone's faith.johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13265054986139606227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-15549969313837946042007-02-14T19:40:00.000-05:002007-02-14T19:40:00.000-05:00John:You said: "I also lean toward believing that ...<B>John:</B><BR/><BR/>You said: <I>"I also lean toward believing that the creation story is a myth."</I><BR/><BR/>If you don't get Genesis right, you most definitely will get Luke and Romans wrong.<BR/><BR/>When the Lord spoke in parables He said so--clearly. We take literally the parable that He used to teach truth within parable. <BR/><BR/>However, Genesis is not parable, metaphor, metonymy, synecdoche, simile, allegory, etc. It is meant to be taken at face value--God created all things in six literal days (the morning and the evening).<BR/><BR/>May I ask you John, who has planted these ideas with you? Who has throughout the years made you come to the belief that this part of Scripture I can take literally, this part I don't have to, this part is myth, this part is truth, etc. kind of mentality?<BR/><BR/>You don't liberal by reading your Bible--these kinds of things come from some other kind of philosophical influence. Who has influenced you?<BR/><BR/>Lastly, by what truth claims do you make your appeal that Jonah was myth, Genesis was not literal, etc.?<BR/><BR/>Thank you for your engagement here on this very important subject.SJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-55728954622764076072007-02-14T15:46:00.000-05:002007-02-14T15:46:00.000-05:00JohnDo you not understand the laws of cause and ef...John<BR/><BR/>Do you not understand the laws of cause and effect. The rods were the cause that evoked a certain response. Through conditioning and the timing of the one who placed the rods the sheep would breed when it was time, there was no magic in the rod. There was a supernatural component with respect to God's intervention, his will would be done no matter what.gigantor1231https://www.blogger.com/profile/13329932791380481665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-30643165492269510622007-02-14T15:28:00.000-05:002007-02-14T15:28:00.000-05:00JohnJust as a side note with regards to Jacob and ...John<BR/><BR/>Just as a side note with regards to Jacob and Laban, I am curious if you deny God's intervention in this passage between these two men, God had predetermined that Jacob would be blessed, not Laban. Read chapter 30 & 31 and see how God's sovereignty oversees all of what happens in order that his will might come to pass. Although Jacob was a wise man and he knew how to manipulate situations it was God who had the last word in it all. And how is this myth? How is not what Jacob did a very exact and precise work of science in cooperation with the will of God? Jacobs actions were not based on any superstition as you assume, it was very deliberate and calculated with a knowledge of how and when to place the rods as well as a knowledge of how the sheep would respond and when it was best to evoke a specific response! I don't think you give our predecessors credit. Is it that you think that we have evolved from apes and that those of the past were of inferior stock because they were not at the top of the evolutionary cusp. I would have to say, and you will find that this is a fact, our predecessors were much smarter and wiser than us in many things, if anything we have devolved over time, and this certainly falls into place with the laws of science, specifically entropy and the laws of thermodynamics. Everything is in a constant state of decay, going from the more complex to the less. Perhaps the curve of deevolution has leveled out to some extent but we are still at the bottom of that curve, any progress towards becoming more complex will simply be some type of spurious man made advancement, not God made. Only those that are born again are on the truly upward curve, moving from glory to glory, those that are of the flesh tend toward death and destruction.gigantor1231https://www.blogger.com/profile/13329932791380481665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-8645904184684342052007-02-14T15:17:00.000-05:002007-02-14T15:17:00.000-05:00Gigantor-So just to be clear, the portion of the t...Gigantor-<BR/>So just to be clear, the portion of the text that speaks about speckled rods yielding speckled sheep and ringed rods yielding ringed sheep - you accept that as a scientific explaination of what happened with those sheep? You believe that the physical attributes of the sheep depended on what type of rod Jacob laid before them?johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13265054986139606227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-85740710798815264922007-02-14T15:13:00.000-05:002007-02-14T15:13:00.000-05:00I believe - like Calvin did - that Jonah is probab...I believe - like Calvin did - that Jonah is probably myth. I also lean toward believing that the creation story is a myth. The account of Noah and the flood is predated by an almost identical account about Gilgamesh. The tower of babel has many of the earmarks of folklore.<BR/><BR/>I'm not saying these stories don't reveal truth. I'm just saying they're not meant to be read literally.<BR/><BR/>Christ taught in parables. He spoke truth. But the parables were NOT literally true. There was no "sower". If you went looking for the foolish virgins, you'd be looking for ghosts - they didn't actually exist. <BR/><BR/>Sometimes, He spoke literally. The disciples watched the poor woman give all she had. <BR/><BR/>Other times, it was unclear. The rich man and Lazarus seems like a parable, but has some elements which could lead one to believe otherwise.<BR/><BR/>So we need the Spirit to reveal to us how the truth of scripture was designed to be understood. Just reading everything literally is WAY oversimplifying the process.johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13265054986139606227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-63773374704323728762007-02-14T12:45:00.000-05:002007-02-14T12:45:00.000-05:00JohnA good portion of my life I was spent in conta...John<BR/><BR/>A good portion of my life I was spent in contact with sheep and sheep herders, they are a stubborn and stupid animal in many ways. For instance, if sheep are moving down a road in a particular direction and they are not being lead by a sheep herder they will follow one another where ever the lead sheep takes them, like right over a cliff. If the lead sheep goes over the others will follow until they have all gone over the cliff, this is a fact. With regards to Jacob and his rods, Jacob was a very wise and tricky man and he knew a thing about psychological manipulation and conditioning, as well as animal husbandry. What a concept, feed and water the sheep you want fed and watered in front of the rods you want them to mate at and over time they become conditioned. Sheep are easily lead and easily conditioned, ask any sheep herder, ask me, I have worked with enough of them to know! <BR/>With regards to Ps. 19, to be honest with you I could take you to a number of different scriptures and show you that it literally says the word of God is perfect, but it would not convince you because it is not what you want to believe. You look to your flesh and human reason for your explanation and from that you will one day realise its inadequate benefit before the living God. <BR/>As far as the field of science is concerned I have lived and worked in the industry for many years. I was a field collector/biologist for a large biological firm for 5 years and I am currently working on a degree in mathematics. Science would not work without the word of God, as I said, by it all things exist, perhaps this is one of those myths to you?<BR/>On myths, you say the Bible contains these "myths". Please show them to me. If even one exists then who is to say the whole thing is not a myth, you hold the word hostage to your own subjectivism and not only that but those that you lead are exposed to your subjectivism and are mislead, not a good thing.<BR/>I would not tell you that I am praying for you but I want you to know. I believe that God is going to do some great things in your life, get ready for some shaking. Don't get me wrong here, I am not trying to be prophetic in any way, I just have great hope for you, after all someone must have had great hope for me because God drew me to his truth, I believe that He will do it for you as well.gigantor1231https://www.blogger.com/profile/13329932791380481665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-46781521648527602802007-02-14T12:06:00.000-05:002007-02-14T12:06:00.000-05:00I appreciate what you have said here Steve.Very we...I appreciate what you have said here Steve.<BR/><BR/>Very well said. God's Book is a precious blessing to His people. We need to embrace it as the treasure it is. Satan does hate the truth of the Bible. He loves to distort it. A little here, and a little there; remove a verse here, and add a few words there.<BR/><BR/>Also, there are many in the Church today who have come in by stealth, and have brought their own destructive heresies.<BR/>Carlton Peirson, I think that's his name, has proclaimed that God showed him, and spoke to him concerning hell; that there is fact no hell at all, and that all people will go to heaven. Grace, grace and grace. No more condemnation.<BR/>He is very popular I have heard. He used to be Carman's pastor I think.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-85266900727691468992007-02-14T11:22:00.000-05:002007-02-14T11:22:00.000-05:00Typo. Should have been: "theopneustos" for God br...Typo. <BR/><BR/>Should have been: "theopneustos" for God breathed.SJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-39296377858544848572007-02-14T11:17:00.001-05:002007-02-14T11:17:00.001-05:00John:You said, "Isn't it possible to believe that ...<B>John:</B><BR/><BR/>You said, <I>"Isn't it possible to believe that the Word of the Lord (what the Lord speaks) is inerrant without accepting that our bible is?"</I><BR/><BR/>No - for what the Lord speaks is His Bible. What other source would you appeal to of "the Lord speaks" to be fully convinced that it is Him speaking if not His Word?<BR/><BR/>Steve<BR/><BR/>PS - Sorry that I followed up my initial comment with a repost after yours; I didn't mean to hit the send button so quickly.SJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.com