tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post113724156363530109..comments2024-03-24T03:21:03.154-04:00Comments on CAMPONTHIS: SPIRITUAL GIFTS...by Dr. John PiperSJ Camphttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-24282824597646416892009-02-22T10:58:00.000-05:002009-02-22T10:58:00.000-05:00"I think it would be fair to say also from this te...<I>"I think it would be fair to say also from this text that you shouldn't bend your mind too much trying to label your spiritual gift before you use it.<BR/><BR/>"....The way to think is this: The reason we have spiritual gifts is so that we can strengthen other people's faith; here is someone whose faith is in jeopardy; how can I help him? <BR/><BR/>"Then do or say what seems most helpful and if the person is helped then you may have discovered one of your gifts."</I><BR/><BR/>This is great wisdom. I've seen through the years many "courses" on such things as "Discover Your Spiritual Gifts". <BR/><BR/>And thirteen weeks, or whatever, is spent on the course, and people "discover" (really "guess") what their spiritual gifts are, and go away feeling more "informed", but never using their gifts.<BR/><BR/>If we pray, and minister to one another in the Spirit, our spiritual gifts will kick in. <BR/><BR/>I see it happen with people who couldn't even tell you what their spiritual gifts are, because they're not focusing on themselves, but on Jesus and His other sheep.Terry Rayburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00888533194435826837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1137821730288435842006-01-21T00:35:00.000-05:002006-01-21T00:35:00.000-05:00Please be in prayer for John Piper. I read on anot...Please be in prayer for John Piper. I read on another web site that he has prostate cancer. He seems optimistic about recovering. So, that's good news. <BR/><BR/>In His Love,<BR/>MicheleMichele Rayburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05815737949587713100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1137593544180031222006-01-18T09:12:00.000-05:002006-01-18T09:12:00.000-05:00Terry,Very clear words and how I see it as well.Br...Terry,<BR/><BR/>Very clear words and how I see it as well.<BR/><BR/>Brian,<BR/><BR/>My personal favorite of the two of John MacArthur's on the topic is "The Gospel According to the Apostles". I think for me he does a great summary of the topic for me so I could see the truth.<BR/><BR/>Actually as a teenager I was so very deeply affected by the song "Consider the Cost" and used it for evangelism with some teen friends. I later read the book The Gospel According to Jesus. <BR/><BR/>I think Steve's song grew out of Steve Camp's reading of the Gospel According to Jesus as well as reading and praying through the scriptures, but since Steve Camp is here we could ask himShawnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06809663608386103910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1137511180751100642006-01-17T10:19:00.000-05:002006-01-17T10:19:00.000-05:00The Gospel According to Jesus is a wonderful place...The Gospel According to Jesus is a wonderful place to start, but MacArthur directly interacts with Hodge's arguments in The Gospel According to the Apostles. Anyone interested in a Biblical view of 'free grace' should definitely get this marvelous book on the nature of true faith. <BR/><BR/>SDGNathan Whitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14146269563760139652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1137476853233252262006-01-17T00:47:00.000-05:002006-01-17T00:47:00.000-05:00I'm aware that Antonio has side-tracked this threa...I'm aware that Antonio has side-tracked this thread somewhat, but since others are commenting on his Zane-ite stuff, I'd like to join in.<BR/><BR/>His (and Zane Hodge's) confusion comes from not understanding regeneration and the absoluteness of Grace. Seeking to exalt Grace, they undermine it.<BR/><BR/>1. They call their theology Free Grace, but then condition the New Birth on an "ACT of punctiliar faith". This is simply another form of legalism, no matter how much they protest otherwise. The "act" is indeed a work (rewarded by regeneration, they would wrongly say).<BR/><BR/>2. They don't understand the simple truth that unregenerate man is dead to God, and alive to sin, utterly unable to exercise faith in Christ. Therefore, regeneration must come first. As Jesus told Nicodemus, unless a man is born again, he can't even SEE the Kingdom of God, let alone believe in the King. That regeneration, blowing "where it will", is true Grace.<BR/><BR/>3. They don't understand that when that regeneration happens, by Grace, there is made a New Creation. This new creation then does indeed believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, not just as Savior, but also as Lord. And Christ actually indwells that new spirit.<BR/><BR/>4. They (and many others) don't understand that man is body, soul and spirit. The spirit is the regenerated "part" of man, and not only believes in Christ, but loves Him, and will always believe in and love Him. It can't NOT believe. This is true even when it APPEARS otherwise for a time, as the believer is deceived in his soul (mind, emotion, will) and walks after the flesh, wherein sin dwells, and sins.<BR/><BR/>5. They don't understand that the New Covenant, by Grace, is EFFECTUAL not only in the forgiveness/redemption aspect, but in exchanging the heart of stone for a heart of flesh, and CAUSING the redeemed one to "walk in My ways".<BR/><BR/>Seeking to save Grace, they have lost it, substituting the true Grace of the New Covenant with a pseudo-grace of the intellect.<BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/>TerryTerry Rayburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00888533194435826837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1137462783228585652006-01-16T20:53:00.000-05:002006-01-16T20:53:00.000-05:00Antonio:Two quick things:1. Zane Hodges brand of c...Antonio:<BR/><BR/>Two quick things:<BR/><BR/>1. Zane Hodges brand of cheap grace and saving faith was doctrinally discredited and biblically rivaled years ago by Dr. MacArthur's excellent tome: <I>"The Gospel According to Jesus."</I> If you haven't read it would help you tremendously to understand the nature of saving faith and God's grace in salvation.<BR/><BR/>2. Per my "rules of engagement" I don't allow comments to be advertisements to move any discussion to another's blog for self promotion as you have done here. I am deleting your comment that promotes such... <BR/><BR/>Please honor this or you will be prohibited from posting here. It's that simple. <BR/><BR/>SJ C@mp<BR/>Col. 1:9-14SJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1137456988679388742006-01-16T19:16:00.000-05:002006-01-16T19:16:00.000-05:00You can be regenerate and not love the Lord, yes.L...You can be regenerate and not love the Lord, yes.<BR/><BR/>Lets see if I can't at least demonstrate:<BR/><BR/>1 John talks about sin. There are sins of the world, the flesh and the devil.<BR/><BR/>When one sins succumbing to the temptation of the world, he is loving the world and not at that moment loving the Lord (1 John 2:15). Are you saying that you can be in sin yet you can say at that moment you are loving Jesus?<BR/><BR/>Jesus says that a test of love is following the commandments. If you are breaking a commandment, are you loving Jesus?<BR/><BR/>Dort:<BR/><BR/>"...converts are not always so influenced and actuated by the Spirit of God..."<BR/><BR/>"When these [prayer and watchfulness] are neglected, they are not only liable to be drawn into great and heinous sins, by Satan, the world and the flesh, but sometimes the righteous permission of God actually fall into these evils."<BR/><BR/>"By such enormous sins, however, they very highly offend God, incur a deadly guilt, grieve the Holy Spirit, interrupt the exercise of faith, very grievously wound their consciences, and sometimes lose the sense of God's favor..."<BR/><BR/>Are you saying that when a truly born again Chrisian backslides, committing "enormous sins", and having their the exercise of their faith interupted that they are at that moment loving Jesus?<BR/><BR/>AntonioAntoniohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08383024070371150288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1137453456056419842006-01-16T18:17:00.000-05:002006-01-16T18:17:00.000-05:00News flash! You can be a true believer and yet NOT...News flash! You can be a true believer and yet NOT love the Lord Jesus Christ! <BR/><BR/>Thank you for the link Antonio, it revealed enough about your position to keep others away.Nathan Whitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14146269563760139652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1137440272598353532006-01-16T14:37:00.000-05:002006-01-16T14:37:00.000-05:00Actually I probably should be doing this, since it...Actually I probably should be doing this, since it's far from the subject at hand, but I'd like to make a simple remark in response to Antonio.<BR/><BR/>Quote: "The scriptural revelation knows nothing of a doctrine in which Christian love for God is guaranteed by the mere fact that one is a Chrsitian". -Zane Hodges<BR/><BR/>This is an absurd statement to make, if one looks to the whole of Scripture.<BR/><BR/>"If anyone does not love the the Lord, let him be accursed" (1 Cor. 16:22)<BR/>Taken from Keith A. Mathison's book, Rightly Dividing the People of God.<BR/><BR/>I disagree very, very strongly with Zane Hodges.<BR/>To keep from a rabbit trail you can contact me personally if you think you have an answer for the above verse of Scripture.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1137430338501336242006-01-16T11:52:00.000-05:002006-01-16T11:52:00.000-05:00Hi Steve. I found your blog on Technorati and have...Hi Steve. I found your blog on Technorati and have added you to my blogroll. I'm a Christian in Perth, western Australia and I also happen to be a big Keith Green fan. You were so priveleged to know him (as you have said). I work for the Christian mission SIM (www.sim.org) and am always interested in Christian blogs. Thanks for your posts.Amanda Hunthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00335134000675340807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1137400102876470982006-01-16T03:28:00.000-05:002006-01-16T03:28:00.000-05:00Thanks for outlining those things Steve. I was awa...Thanks for outlining those things Steve. I was aware them and it's good to have them clearly explained. I particlularly agree with this:<BR/><I>. He has no authority apart from the revealed Word of God.</I> Which in the context of your comment is the bible.<BR/><BR/>Hi Doxoblogist,<BR/><BR/><I>I honestly I don't think Piper, or Peter, are referring specifically to prophecy here. They are both simply saying exactly what they are saying.<BR/><BR/>"Whoever speaks (let him do it) as one who utters oracles of God"<BR/><BR/>Whether a word of encouragement, preaching, rebuke, or whatever speech we are using in the sense of a 'spiritual gift', then we should take care that we are speaking truth.</I><BR/><BR/>I agree we should seek to speak the truth Dox and see what you are saying with regard to everyday speech. I'm lookin' and contextin'...<BR/>Seems to me that Peter refers to receiving gifts, and then in part continues to refer to speaking as the oracles of God which he dirctly connects with ministering.<BR/><BR/>What I don't agree with is what Piper has said though - <I>If your gift involves speaking do not rely on your own insight</I> - so he is not just talking about our everyday speech, which everyone does, but has put this into the area of speaking in a different way - as a gift of speaking as the oracles of God. As far as I can find biblically, speaking as an oracle of God is not the same as everyday conversation.<BR/><BR/>To answer you - I am just not sure I agree with Piper on his advice on that point. I don't see him saying the same as Peter there. Jamieson, Faucet and Brown's commentary have the interpretation I have on Peter's reference to speaking as the oracles of God in that verse:<BR/>"as a prophet, or divinely taught teacher in the church assembly". Haven't looked up other main commentaries but I doubt there'd be any significant disagreement. So I disagree with Piper. I think Peter is saying they are speaking as a prophet or one divinely inspired - in which case divine inspiration and 100% infallibility is required.<BR/><BR/>To pick up on Steve's point about no authority today except the revealed word of God (the bible) - that in a nutshell answers my other question regarding extra-biblical revelation and the cannon.<BR/><BR/>Thanks!Catezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14514176885131945814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1137388504311994632006-01-16T00:15:00.000-05:002006-01-16T00:15:00.000-05:00You guys........:-)You guys........<BR/>:-)littlegal_66https://www.blogger.com/profile/09424599483109788899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1137375136074252392006-01-15T20:32:00.000-05:002006-01-15T20:32:00.000-05:00Antonio makes a good point!:-)Antonio makes a good point!<BR/>:-)Jeremy Weaverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02552780649310262425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1137301330131541172006-01-15T00:02:00.000-05:002006-01-15T00:02:00.000-05:00Thank you--awesome. Originally preached 25 years a...Thank you--awesome. Originally preached 25 years ago? And to me, now more germane than ever!littlegal_66https://www.blogger.com/profile/09424599483109788899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1137295608244024982006-01-14T22:26:00.000-05:002006-01-14T22:26:00.000-05:00Prophecy has three basic meanings biblically; and ...Prophecy has three basic meanings biblically; and each in their right context unfolds how the word is to be treated.<BR/><BR/>1. It was used eschatologically such as in the book of Revelation or through the prophets of the O.T. It was used to unfold God's redemptive plan for man through the promise of the coming Messiah.<BR/><BR/>2. It was used to foretell individual or national events (i.e. Agabus, Moses, etc.).<BR/><BR/>3. It was and is used to forth-tell or proclaim God's already revealed Word and truth (Neh. 8:8, 2 Tim. 3:16-17, etc.).<BR/><BR/>It is not a spiritual gift like we see demonstrated on Christian TV where hosts of various programs are nothing more than the Christian equivalent to "the psychic friends network."<BR/><BR/>Today, the N.T. prophet is one who preaches God's Word and proclaims the gospel (cp, 1 Cor. 14:1; Jude 3; 2 Peter 3:15ff; 2 Tim. 4:1-5; 2 Peter 2). His role is to encourage, equip, edify, exhort and evangelize with the Word of God. He has no authority apart from the revealed Word of God. Even in the O.T. this was true (cp, Isaiah 8:20).<BR/><BR/>In the O.T., if what a "prophet" foretold wasn't 100% accurate he was stoned to death (cp, Deut. 13, 18). That had a profound and immediate effect on those who claimed to speak for God by removing the false prophets from their midst. <BR/><BR/>Secondly, if their "prophecy" somehow came true, but didn't point people to the true God or was in accordance with His revealed Law, they were also stoned to death (ibid.; cp, Matt. 7:21-23)<BR/><BR/>Today, people say they speak for God by claiming to have direct words of "revelation" from Him to others ad nauseam... And they do this with such a casual nature because they have not fear of any consequence for their skewed and flawed "prophetic words." How convenient for them: they get to say whatever they want in the name of the Lord, claiming first person revelation with no responsibility for what they may say. They don't speak for God; they speak for themselves!<BR/><BR/>When people are constantly clamoring for a sign and the phenomenon to be visible in their lives, it is not the evidence of great faith at work; it is doubt looking for proof, and they call it faith. Very tragic indeed. <BR/><BR/>The simple cure for this is one thing beloved: READ YOUR BIBLES. It is absolute truth; infallible and inerrant in all its claims; it is the very Word of God (1 Thess. 2:13).<BR/><BR/>Hope this helps a bit more.SJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1137294224961157042006-01-14T22:03:00.000-05:002006-01-14T22:03:00.000-05:00Catez,Are you questioning Peter or Piper? Piper i...Catez,<BR/>Are you questioning Peter or Piper? Piper is quoting from 2 Peter, so if you have a problem with that quotation, look at the context.<BR/>If you have a problem with Piper's use of that quotation, then I honestly I don't think Piper, or Peter, are referring specifically to prophecy here. They are both simply saying exactly what they are saying.<BR/><BR/>"Whoever speaks (let him do it) as one who utters oracles of God"<BR/><BR/>Whether a word of encouragement, preaching, rebuke, or whatever speech we are using in the sense of a 'spiritual gift', then we should take care that we are speaking truth. We must remember who it is that we are called to live for. We live for God. When we speak, only what is wholesome should proceed from our mouths.<BR/>And yes, I agree with the 100% accuracy as a goal to push toward, but must admit, I don't reach it in my speech.Jeremy Weaverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02552780649310262425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1137289578687409432006-01-14T20:46:00.000-05:002006-01-14T20:46:00.000-05:00To add to that - if some-one does speak 100% infal...To add to that - if some-one does speak 100% infallible God-inspired prophecy does this mean they are speaking on a level with scripture? If so, doesn't that leave room for extra-biblical revelation and thus the cannon is not closed? (If they are not required to speak scripture as Piper suggests).Catezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14514176885131945814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1137289422976272492006-01-14T20:43:00.000-05:002006-01-14T20:43:00.000-05:00"Whoever speaks (let him do it) as one who utters ...<I>"Whoever speaks (let him do it) as one who utters oracles of God." If your gift involves speaking do not rely on your own insight, but look to God to give His words through you. We impart grace to our listener only if we give them a word of God. It may not be an exact word of Scripture, but a word prompted and guided by God so that attention is directed to him, not us.</I><BR/><BR/>I like the tone of the article. On this part though I have some question marks. <I>"Whoever speaks (let him do it) as one who utters oracles of God."</I><BR/><BR/>The biblical requirement for those speaking as ones who utter oracles of God is that they point people to God and are 100% accurate. Infallibility. I don't see Piper making that point here.<BR/>He talks about <I>a word prompted and guided by God so that attention is directed to him, not us</I>. If he means a word that is 100% God-inspired and infallible he has a point. If not then where does he find the basis? <BR/><BR/>And who today speaks "as the oracles of God" infallibly? When they don't why is the biblical standard not applied?<BR/><BR/>These are questions that I am asking because I am quite seriously looking for answers.Catezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14514176885131945814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1137274332224949592006-01-14T16:32:00.000-05:002006-01-14T16:32:00.000-05:00It is our tendancy towards individualistic christi...It is our tendancy towards individualistic christianity that says; "what is MY spiritual gift? What is special about me?" <BR/><BR/>But when we review the texts that are commonly known as those that lists "spiritual gifts" [Romans, 1 Corintians, 1 Peter] you see the context all about loving the Church and building it up... and in loving others with gospel deed or word you learn about how God has gifted you. Its not about you, its about God's people.<BR/><BR/>No matter were we get in figuring "are those gifts for today" we will never see anything if we are not loving Christ's people like crazy.<BR/><BR/>Just a convicting thought I think Dr. Piper's sermon also brings to light. I don't intend for this post to lead the discussion off track.Revhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06350183323379598917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1137255512891428792006-01-14T11:18:00.000-05:002006-01-14T11:18:00.000-05:00Excellent article!Excellent article!candyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06088593538648596769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1137251081633002762006-01-14T10:04:00.000-05:002006-01-14T10:04:00.000-05:00I agree with all that Piper says there, I just wan...I agree with all that Piper says there, I just want to make one clarification. He does not say that we should not define the gift(s) at work in our lives, but that we should not be preoccupied with naming our gift(s). It is a healthy thing to know what your gift is. But it is not all-important. It is better to exercise your gift than to know what your gift is. And in exercising it, you will discover it.<BR/>I think this is Paul's line of thought also when he says that we should pursue love above all the gifts. Paul knows that love will exercise our gifts to the edification of the church.<BR/><BR/>BTW, Am I to take it that you are not a strict cessationist by publishing this sermon? Or are you still exploring the issue? Or are you laying the foundation for a cessationistic discourse?Jeremy Weaverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02552780649310262425noreply@blogger.com