tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post112905139140237576..comments2024-03-24T03:21:03.154-04:00Comments on CAMPONTHIS: What We Believe at COT and A1M...statement of belief and faithSJ Camphttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1129858613408099702005-10-20T21:36:00.000-04:002005-10-20T21:36:00.000-04:00Dogpreacher,Thank you for your good comments and p...Dogpreacher,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for your good comments and profound truths. It may seem strange to you that I do not deny what you say, only I leave it as a mystery as I don't wish to contend with Scripture. I am inhibited by what the Word of God says. This matter of prayer is used very little. God presses men to pray. He also marvels when He is sought after. I just don't understand it all. At one time I thought I did though. Who can know the mind of God? We have to be careful. That is all I am saying. Prayer is near and dear to the Heart of God.Bhedrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08091896907803479900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1129837515768363502005-10-20T15:45:00.000-04:002005-10-20T15:45:00.000-04:00respectfully Bhedr,Their are different manners of ...respectfully Bhedr,<BR/><BR/>Their are different manners of speech in the Bible (especially where God is speaking), only to be rightfully interpreted by proper use of Hermeneutics. <BR/><BR/>Example:(1)God says He is spirit.<BR/> (2)God says He has arms/legs.<BR/><BR/>Which is true? both...IF ONE of these statements is in a different form (manner) of speech.<BR/><BR/>Letterism = Forcing a literal <BR/> interpretation on a <BR/> text where it should<BR/> not be used (and THAT <BR/> dictated by the<BR/> context)<BR/><BR/>The verse (Daniel 10:12) you gave actually is proof of what A.W. Pink was saying. God tells him that from 'the moment' he set himself (did he set himself, or did God set him?) to understand / humble himself...THEN did God hear him. When God turns our hearts towards Him, and SETS us to understand, and HUMBLES us...THEN He hears our words (for they are then in HIS WILL). <BR/><BR/>This passage shows that God comes because of Daniels words (prayer), yes, and this validates what Pink wrote. God ordained the means (Daniel's prayer) by which He would 'come', and then turned Daniel's heart to Himself for understanding/humility to bring about the prayer.<BR/><BR/>Daniels prayer didn't change God's plan / intentions. Daniels prayer was the fore-ordained means by which God would do what He was going to do already. This is another GRACE that God allows us...to be a part of His plan...NOT in any way to reconstruct it.dogpreacherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14126765017002042276noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1129774471033163922005-10-19T22:14:00.000-04:002005-10-19T22:14:00.000-04:00Campi,Let's go catch a Vols game one weekend. I s...Campi,<BR/>Let's go catch a Vols game one weekend. I still like them even though they are apostate!<BR/>BTW, I'm buying.Jeremy Weaverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02552780649310262425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1129763389311634162005-10-19T19:09:00.000-04:002005-10-19T19:09:00.000-04:00"Do not fear Daniel, for from the first day that y..."Do not fear Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand, and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard; and I have come because of your words." Daniel 10:12<BR/>I understand your heart but<BR/>Brother its not that I am proud, I just am inhibited by what Scripture says on prayer and find it to contradict what Pink says. Ye have not because Ye ask not. Utilize this amazing tool that God Himself encourages you to explore. I don't pretend to understand it.<BR/><BR/>Sola ScripturaBhedrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08091896907803479900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1129736425196504512005-10-19T11:40:00.000-04:002005-10-19T11:40:00.000-04:00Bhedr,Respectfully, Pink's chapter concerning the ...Bhedr,<BR/>Respectfully, Pink's chapter concerning the "sovereignty of God in prayer" is one of the finest pieces ever written concerning the 'nature' of prayer. Granted, Pink was not a Spurgeon, nor a Barnhouse. These were wordsmiths who make our hearts soar when we read them. Pink's writings on the 'nature' of prayer, was in the context of the sovereignty of God, and he nailed it. Plain and simple, IF your (or anybodys) prayer CHANGES things, God IS NOT sovereign. Prayer is a blessed means which God has ordained to bring about His sovereign decrees. It is much the same as preaching in that regard. <BR/><BR/>Let's face it, it is human pride that recoils at the FACT that our prayers do not send God scrambling for plan B...C...D...etc. <BR/><BR/>When our prayers are "...thy will be done, Lord" they will be answered (that' what scripture say's), and, in just the manner PLAN A was decreed.<BR/><BR/>Let's be grateful that he allows us to participate in all of this by moving us to pray, thus glorifying Him.dogpreacherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14126765017002042276noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1129402445069893892005-10-15T14:54:00.000-04:002005-10-15T14:54:00.000-04:00J.Wendell,10,000 LEGION. If that is the number Chr...J.Wendell,<BR/><BR/>10,000 LEGION. If that is the number Christ said could rescue him then that is the amount that can dance on the head of a pin:-)<BR/><BR/>Dogpreacher,<BR/><BR/>I said>A.W Pink had a lot right but If I took him in every matter then I would not take prayer seriously.< I did not say he didn't take it seriously. He may have been a great man of prayer however my concern is that his conclusions found in The Soveriegnty of God on pages 165-178 give me concern that this powerful tool given to us by God will be undersold.<BR/>Remember Job's three friends were not rebuked for speaking untruths about Job but for not speaking about Him(YHVH Himself) correctly. I guess in one sense we all have the tendancey to think we all have it figured out.<BR/>Brother I really appreciate your boldness and pray you will always keep your edge but that God will reveal some things to you. In one sense though brother I have not much room to talk as I am learning everyday.Bhedrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08091896907803479900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1129328664086314732005-10-14T18:24:00.000-04:002005-10-14T18:24:00.000-04:00How can man be so wise about God's mind whose wisd...How can man be so wise about God's mind whose wisdom is above ours? <BR/><BR/>Here's a better question to ponder: how many angels can fit on the head of a pin?<BR/><BR/>Just a pinheaded ponderer,<BR/>brother JohnJ. Wendellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00765506892310444078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1129323705074378352005-10-14T17:01:00.000-04:002005-10-14T17:01:00.000-04:00Thumbs up Doxo!A very concise, but spot on summary...Thumbs up Doxo!<BR/><BR/>A very concise, but spot on summary.<BR/><BR/>Alive & hearing,<BR/>The DOGpreacherdogpreacherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14126765017002042276noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1129315152137573482005-10-14T14:39:00.000-04:002005-10-14T14:39:00.000-04:00Rose, On second thought, I hope that it's not the ...Rose, <BR/><BR/>On second thought, I hope that it's <B>not</B> the regeneration issue that pained you. That was really a poor choice of words on my part. Actually, I feel badly that anything in the thread bothered you at all. But then, no one agrees with everything they read, anyway. Hang in there.<BR/><BR/>--Stephlittlegal_66https://www.blogger.com/profile/09424599483109788899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1129315028377111162005-10-14T14:37:00.000-04:002005-10-14T14:37:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.littlegal_66https://www.blogger.com/profile/09424599483109788899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1129306833485882202005-10-14T12:20:00.000-04:002005-10-14T12:20:00.000-04:00Rose-I'm hoping that you are referring to the disc...Rose-<BR/><BR/>I'm hoping that you are referring to the discussion on regeneration, rather than my feeble attempts late in the thread to lighten the mood just a bit. I apologize if it were my posts that were painful--if so, please let me know, and I pledge to delete them promptly. <BR/><BR/>P.S. Thanks for your comments to my "My Button-Down Mind" blog.<BR/>--littlegallittlegal_66https://www.blogger.com/profile/09424599483109788899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1129305958394459242005-10-14T12:05:00.000-04:002005-10-14T12:05:00.000-04:00Steve,I still have that Peter Gabriel song going t...Steve,<BR/>I still have that Peter Gabriel song going through my head.<BR/> <BR/>Also - your post got a lot longer and went from being something that encouraged me to something that is painful. Sorry to say that, but its true. I will be sure to comment again when I have something postive to say and hopefully the post will not change that time.Rose~https://www.blogger.com/profile/14906854078623897422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1129290922528596582005-10-14T07:55:00.000-04:002005-10-14T07:55:00.000-04:00Guys,The Spirit goes forth in the preaching of the...Guys,<BR/>The Spirit goes forth in the preaching of the Gospel and by the Spirit that goes forth in that preaching we are regenerated which in turn produces faith so that we can believe.Jeremy Weaverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02552780649310262425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1129273013793909492005-10-14T02:56:00.000-04:002005-10-14T02:56:00.000-04:00BTW...Bhedr...You have not read a lot of Pink if y...BTW...Bhedr...<BR/><BR/>You have not read a lot of Pink if you think he did not take prayer seriously...or then again maybe you read one of those biographies that 'some one' wrote, and ended up writing a different one later, after he (the writer) grew (and did his homework) and came to much <BR/>different conclusions.dogpreacherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14126765017002042276noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1129272445030421302005-10-14T02:47:00.000-04:002005-10-14T02:47:00.000-04:00Steve;On the "faith cometh by hearing..." verse, I...Steve;<BR/><BR/>On the "faith cometh by hearing..." verse, I was not talking about 'hearing the word' being causal to faith other than as an ordained means by which the graced recipient of faith is first cognizant of having received it. This shows, I believe, that regeneration precedes faith.<BR/><BR/>As far as the actual wording of that verse, I think your statement "...but that is not acurate" is open to debate.<BR/><BR/>2316/Strongs = Theos = God<BR/>5547/Strongs = Christos = Christ<BR/><BR/>But...therse is also the 'Word' to consider. Is it the rhema, or the logos, and if logos, is it Christ?<BR/>Sometimes, logos = Christ.<BR/><BR/>I am curious as to why this was an issue for you, seeing that if it was "by the word of Christ", ...Christ is God!<BR/><BR/>I submit this interpretation (?)...<BR/><BR/>"Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the 'Word'(Christ) of God".<BR/><BR/><BR/>Graced Alive,<BR/>Greggdogpreacherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14126765017002042276noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1129260176462451212005-10-13T23:22:00.000-04:002005-10-13T23:22:00.000-04:00Jeremy--You wrote: "Are you saying I'm not smart?"...Jeremy--<BR/>You wrote: "Are you saying I'm not smart?"<BR/><BR/>Quite the contrary, clever & capable comedic comrade. (I would have typed "comedic brother," but then, that would have messed up that alliteration thing I had going on.<BR/>[A linguistic technique that, as a caped crusader, Chad might appreciate]). <BR/><BR/>How well I know that intelligence and cleverness are the catalysts for real humor (which you consistently exhibit here at the Campi-ground). ; )<BR/><BR/>P.S. Dittos, Sledge.<BR/><BR/>And BTW, doxo, keep this up, & you're going to get me in trouble with the teacher--aren't our last posts the equivalent of passing notes in class? :-) I'm gonna behave, now, because I'm getting <B>way</B> OT, and I don't want a big fat "zero" for my contribution to this thread.littlegal_66https://www.blogger.com/profile/09424599483109788899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1129252404063511472005-10-13T21:13:00.000-04:002005-10-13T21:13:00.000-04:00Steve,I'm just being sarcastic.littlegal66,Are you...Steve,<BR/>I'm just being sarcastic.<BR/>littlegal66,<BR/>Are you saying I'm not smart? I thought I was pretty clever!<BR/>Actually I did sit in the back of the class, but I didn't talk much. I just sat back there because I didn't want to be Chad.Jeremy Weaverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02552780649310262425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1129242226375098772005-10-13T18:23:00.000-04:002005-10-13T18:23:00.000-04:00Sledge and Shawn,Thanks good stuff and I agree as ...Sledge and Shawn,<BR/><BR/>Thanks good stuff and I agree as it may seem strange to some that I do. I know this may seem Hypocritical but Please understand I do not believe that faith precedes regeneration it's just my belief that they occur at the same moment, but I will concede that faith is a response of the quickening spark plug of God as He's got the keys to the ignition. I just feel a need to be careful as some portions of Scripture indicate that our faith glorifies God and there are some puzzling passages.<BR/><BR/>I guess there is a lot said in "My Spirit will not always strive with man."<BR/><BR/>A.W Pink had a lot right but If I took him in every matter then I would not take prayer seriously. I just disagree with Him there in the matter of prayer. I think he limits the power of prayer. In reality I believe prayer is a crucial key as Moses' intercession in some form Changed something in God's mind. And I don't think God was just speaking Hyperbole there. The book of Daniel gives me cause to see that there sleeps something there that we know not of.<BR/><BR/>Take care<BR/>Berian:-)Bhedrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08091896907803479900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1129239685131673502005-10-13T17:41:00.000-04:002005-10-13T17:41:00.000-04:00Steve & Brian,Other verses to consider with regene...Steve & Brian,<BR/><BR/>Other verses to consider with regeneration.<BR/><BR/>James 1:18 <BR/>Ezek 36:26-27<BR/>John 1:12-13<BR/>John 3:1-10<BR/>John 6:44, 45, 63-65<BR/>Eph 2:1-5<BR/>Acts 16:14<BR/><BR/>Also thought this interesting.....<BR/><BR/>http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/regeneration_grudem.htmlShawnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06809663608386103910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1129237053061589562005-10-13T16:57:00.000-04:002005-10-13T16:57:00.000-04:00Jeremy-were you thinking you had just entered the ...Jeremy-were you thinking you had just entered the Twilight Zone....(again)? <BR/><BR/>For what it's worth, (probably only a mite, & besides, Chad & unchained slave already donated two cents each) I think the COT/a1m statement is spot-on and pretty consistent with my own personal beliefs in matters of the Faith.<BR/><BR/>I am so grateful to be able to confer with all of you here at the <I>"Camp Institute for Advanced <BR/>Reformed Studies."</I><BR/><BR/>Jeremy--I bet you were the laid-back guy in high school who sat in the back of the class making cute wisecracks. And Chad, maybe you were the scholarly student who sat up front, but who would jump at the chance to engage the class clown with your own witty retorts. (Just a guess--I could be wrong). : )<BR/><BR/>--littlegal<BR/>Romans 5:9littlegal_66https://www.blogger.com/profile/09424599483109788899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1129236174024535462005-10-13T16:42:00.000-04:002005-10-13T16:42:00.000-04:00The issue of regeneration preceding faith is a sim...The issue of regeneration preceding faith is a simple one: We must be quickened by the Spirit of God in order to confess Christ as Lord (1 Cor. 12:3; Titus 3:6-7).<BR/><BR/>If we are truly dead in trespass and sin, then we cannot of our own volition exercise faith to believe apart from His granting it to us.<BR/><BR/>BTW: "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ." Most say, "the word of God" - but that is not accurate. The Word is not what produces faith so that we hear the gospel; faith is the gift of God that enables us to hear the word of Christ.<BR/><BR/>Like you said, it is all of God and that is really the point here. Salvation is of the Lord - from beginning to end - He is the author and finisher of our faith (Heb. 12:2)<BR/><BR/>El SledgboSJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1129235016453950832005-10-13T16:23:00.000-04:002005-10-13T16:23:00.000-04:00BTW, guys I would be more than happy to admit that...BTW, guys I would be more than happy to admit that regeneration precedes faith and at one time I believed it did. My analogy was weak as none can explain this mystery. verses like:<BR/><BR/>I would..ye would not!<BR/><BR/>or<BR/><BR/>Many are *called* few chosen!<BR/><BR/>and also the disciples who seemed to understand that regeneration precede faith asked Jesus, "Lord, increase our faith..."<BR/><BR/>He didn't answer but said, "If you had faith the grain of a musturd seed..."<BR/>bouncing the ball back in their court.<BR/><BR/>yet Jesus told Pilot, 'You would have nothing were it not given to you from above'<BR/><BR/>Therefore I concede it all to God; yet I am restrained by Scripture. I believe its just like trying to solve the mystery of DNA. We may never know the nomenclature of everything so I just decided to yeild to what Scripture says and just accept that they both seem to happen at the same time. But thats ok really cause I fully understand why you guys reach this conclusion and I love all of you.Bhedrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08091896907803479900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1129232963913621112005-10-13T15:49:00.000-04:002005-10-13T15:49:00.000-04:00Yes... :-) - sorry.There are so many things to con...Yes... :-) - sorry.<BR/><BR/>There are so many things to consider once you start down this path--and no one statement quite says it all or the biblical way you desire. So nips and tucks are appropriate. <B>But</B> for my purposes and for this ministry - it has officially stopped growing.<BR/><BR/>CampiSJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1129222180481954012005-10-13T12:49:00.000-04:002005-10-13T12:49:00.000-04:00DID THIS POST JUST GET LONGER?!DID THIS POST JUST GET LONGER?!Jeremy Weaverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02552780649310262425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1129184825058104952005-10-13T02:27:00.000-04:002005-10-13T02:27:00.000-04:00Thanks steve, although I must say, your statement ...Thanks steve, although I must say, your statement of faith held no surprises for me. I have been reading your blog faithfully for a couple of months+ and I don't think there is one part of your 'statement'(except...maybe... views on the millenium) that one wouldn't have already gleaned from your Posts and comments.<BR/><BR/>Yes, regeneration preceding (and being causal to) faith is important!<BR/><BR/>I do not call myself a calvinist (because although we would agree on much, there are some serious issues I would not agree with him on either), but when it comes to the soteriological 5-point response to the remonstrants...you betcha! <BR/><BR/>To the idea that regeneration/faith is simultaneous, I have to look at the Lazarus 'type' and go with regeneration first.<BR/><BR/>Also...consider...<BR/><BR/>.."Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God". If faith comes by hearing (and scripture says it does), and we know that a dead man hears nothing, there must be life first SO one CAN hear. Is it but a nano-second that lies between...who knows ? <BR/><BR/>BTW...John Piper, MacArthur, Sproul, Begg, D.J. Kennedy would not align doctrinally either, but I like listening/reading all of them.dogpreacherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14126765017002042276noreply@blogger.com