tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post112445671614647002..comments2024-03-24T03:21:03.154-04:00Comments on CAMPONTHIS: The New ECT...the Evangelical Culture of ToleranceSJ Camphttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1165516851326564042006-12-07T13:40:00.000-05:002006-12-07T13:40:00.000-05:00Steve,Thanks for the write back and the astute rem...Steve,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the write back and the astute reminder regarding MLJ and BG. <BR/><BR/>Regarding Evangelical leaders, what think you of Mohler regarding this? I realize his article wasn't exactly in the wake of PJP's death, seeing that anyone's comments at or near that time would create unecessary love fests and witch hunts. At a minimum, Mohler seems to spearhead the problem with precision, something I think he has a gift for. Thanks, man.REMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18285866237413113428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1165512744857087682006-12-07T12:32:00.000-05:002006-12-07T12:32:00.000-05:00rem:Thank you for your comment.I don't consider Fr...<B>rem:</B><BR/><BR/>Thank you for your comment.<BR/><BR/>I don't consider Franklin Graham "an enemy" if that was your inference. However, the BGEA has a long-standing relationship with the Roman Catholic Church in their crusades (remember, this was THE issue that separated D. M. Lloyd Jones with Billy in not being able to support his Harringay crusade in London--1954).<BR/><BR/>I know there are many fine Roman humanitarians, i.e. Mother Teresa, who denied the gospel of sola fide in Jesus Christ, but yet did fine work for the poor. Pope John Paul II would fit that as well. I don't deny that he stood for some good and moral values; but he also believed a different gospel than what the Scriptures teach--which is no gospel at all (Gal. 1:6-9).<BR/><BR/>It would have been refreshing to hear an evangelical leader publicly make that distinction.<BR/><BR/>Grace and peace,<BR/>Steve<BR/>2 Cor. 4:5-7SJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1165511071891615472006-12-07T12:04:00.000-05:002006-12-07T12:04:00.000-05:00Steve, Greetings. A lot of what you said here is ...Steve, <BR/>Greetings. A lot of what you said here is warranted. However, Franklin Graham's <A HREF="http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/columnist/2005-04-05-model_x.htm" REL="nofollow">entire</A> USA Today article intuitively mocked the framework of the RC works by salvation gospel. The enemy of your enemy is not always your friend, but he sure looks like he's a friend of yours in this instance. Futhermore, I don't see a huge difference between your general praise of an unidentified moral person and the actual praise of identified moral person by Franklin Graham, who didn't let the fact that a man was pope stop him from doing what you merely talked about. Don't join the ranks of the overly sensitive who tag any kind word cast in the general direction of a RC as a flawless equation toward total gospel compromise. Thanks.REMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18285866237413113428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1165432946547228052006-12-06T14:22:00.000-05:002006-12-06T14:22:00.000-05:00Al Mohler wrote an insightful article on what an E...Al Mohler wrote an insightful article on what an Evangelical's view of the Roman Church should be and what the corresponding relationship with Rome should look like in light of that.<BR/> <BR/>http://touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=16-06-070-fREMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18285866237413113428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1165347340231597962006-12-05T14:35:00.000-05:002006-12-05T14:35:00.000-05:00As I read the portion of this post about the execu...As I read the portion of this post about the execution of brothers Ridley and Latimer at the hands of Bloody Mary I thought of the hundreds of other martyrs such as William Tyndale who paid the ultimate price for standing against the false doctrines of the R.C. I find it very interesting that when we look closely at their surviving words we see a common thread of Christlikeness, and the determination to live lives of sacrifice even unto death. They could do this because they were empowered by the Holy Spirit to obey God naturally.<BR/><BR/>I find it tragic that the list of "Christian" leaders you listed seem to ignore that Pope JP was a Roman Catholic doctrinally and that means he was opposed to the doctrine of Justification by Faith alone. His was a doctrine Justification by good works.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for posting this Steve. It may not be a popular thing to tell the truth about someone as well-liked as the late Pope John Paul II, but it is something that all whose hearts are bound to the truth of Sacred Scripture will do as the Spirit leads them.<BR/><BR/>In Christ<BR/><BR/>Mike RatliffMike Ratliffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14067841429011899105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1165345228597164162006-12-05T14:00:00.000-05:002006-12-05T14:00:00.000-05:00Great post. The new ECT is the new line being draw...Great post. The new ECT is the new line being drawn in the sand. There are only two "religions." Man-based and God-based, sola scripture, etc.<BR/><BR/>JPII and the others fall into religion #1. JPII believed and preached Mary as a co-redeemer. <BR/><BR/>It's really not that complicated. Either you are in #1 or #2.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1165330879853827542006-12-05T10:01:00.000-05:002006-12-05T10:01:00.000-05:00Great post. It's the gospel that is our highest tr...Great post. It's the gospel that is our highest treasure. And the gospel is Christ.<BR/><BR/>There was a man who sought fine pearls. And he found one of great price. He then went and sold ALL he had to buy this one pearl!<BR/><BR/>This pearl is the gospel, which is Christ Himself.<BR/><BR/>The Catholic Church does have a good works gospel. <BR/>It's not faith alone. <BR/><BR/>I had a prof/priest from Notre Dame tell me I was in error when I sang the song, "Nothing But the Blood"; the gospel is more than just His blood. <BR/><BR/>Thanks for the encouragement, and edification to "play the man". <BR/>I was very humbled by reading about Latimer & Ridley.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1124764938050923902005-08-22T22:42:00.000-04:002005-08-22T22:42:00.000-04:00You said:*Sigh*I really do feel very sorry for the...You said:*Sigh*<BR/><BR/>I really do feel very sorry for the lot of you.<BR/>--------------------<BR/>Thank you for your great patience and longsuffering:-)And your pity.<BR/><BR/>I agree that we must love one another but I challenge you to look deeper into the full extent of Graham's ministry. I appreciate his witness and love for others, but i cannot turn a blind eye to over 1000 years of history as well as Revelation 17 and 18.Is there not a cause? Should David have been pitied? Was he trying to divide Israel or save it? How about Elijah whom Ahab accused for troubling Israel? Truly Graham is a popular evangelist and loved by many, but can we turn a blind eye to the ones who lost their life for the gospel?Men like Jeremiah who were accused and killed for YHVH? I encourage you to read: 50 years in the Church of Rome by Father Chiniquay. This was once a very important book in our nation but since the ecumenical movement it has been swept under the rug. There are quotes from Abraham Lincoln in the book. My friend, I know you mean well but the true Gospel of Yeshua should not be a small matter to us. The apostle Paul spent 3 years warning as well as his last words to Timothy on this subject matter. Please don't be trifle with what Paul lost his head over.Bhedrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08091896907803479900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1124754782841848462005-08-22T19:53:00.000-04:002005-08-22T19:53:00.000-04:00Timothy George's book, "Theology of the Reformers"...Timothy George's book, "Theology of the Reformers", I think (though I don't think I've read it entirely), is outstanding- and he continues to write well today. He is a scholar to be reckoned with.<BR/><BR/>Good scholars and people do disagree on some of these matters.<BR/><BR/>It does us all well to go back to Scripture- for sure, and also to really grapple with trying to understand the interpretations of scriptural passages by those on the other side.Ted M. Gossardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10580691315315271791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1124729425034035242005-08-22T12:50:00.000-04:002005-08-22T12:50:00.000-04:00Steve, great post. I guess the one who confuses m...Steve, great post. I guess the one who confuses me most is Timothy George. I met him personally once and he is a very gracious man. He sent me a couple of books and from them and from his commentary on Galatians it is evident that he is a committed Calvinist. How can someone so doctrinally sound be so, well, seemingly willing to compromise?<BR/><BR/>I looked at his statement and a lot of it is technically true, but, why not tell the rest of the story as well? I read Dr. George's entire commentary on Galatians and, imo, it is the best one I have. Tremendous insight! I wondered at the time how the author of that commentary could have signed the ECT. It seems as if some of his statements and actions are contrary to his comments on the Judaizing controversy in Galatians.<BR/><BR/>I have deep respect for the man, it's just that I wonder about him too.Momohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04292177473341691525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1124680110030153512005-08-21T23:08:00.000-04:002005-08-21T23:08:00.000-04:00The Cooperative Baptist Fellowship was originally ...The Cooperative Baptist Fellowship was originally founded in the mid-1970's (or so) by folks who were loyal to the Southern Baptist hierarchy rather than the churches. (To paraphrase Will Rogers: I don't belong to an organized denomination; I'm a Southern Baptist.) What has become apparent in the ensuing years is that the denominational hierarchy had already been taken over by those we euphemistically call "moderates", and so the conservative "rebellion" of the 1980's was actually a return of the Southern Baptist Convention to the hands of the churches. So it's no surprise to me, a lifelong Southern Baptist, that the CBF would take this kind of stand regarding the now-deceased Roman Catholic Bishop of Rome.Jim Criglerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11437189788683651969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1124667533724237112005-08-21T19:38:00.000-04:002005-08-21T19:38:00.000-04:00*Sigh*I really do feel very sorry for the lot of y...*Sigh*<BR/><BR/>I really do feel very sorry for the lot of you. Not just because you can't seem to see the rather obvious difference between Ebionist/Judaizing/Gnostic heresies and the teaching of the Catholic church, but because you clearly haven't bothered even to look at what the Church REALLY believes.<BR/><BR/>No, we don't believe in 'works righteousness', and neither do the Eastern Orthodox. We don't believe that you 'earn your salvation'. Thus, Galatians has NOTHING to do with a critique of Roman Catholicism. Neither do we worship Mary, or Saints, or statues, or ANYTHING other than God Himself.<BR/><BR/>Thank God for Billy Graham and others who are able to remove the ideological blinkers and see other Christians despite their theological disagreements. Perhaps if you met more devout, lovingly Christian Catholics, you wouldn't have such a distorted mythological view of who we are, and what we believe.<BR/><BR/>Please don't be happy just to snipe at a straw man - search for the truth - do some proper research - and you'll realise that all this anti-ecumenical nonsense is just Satan's way of dividing the Body of Christ.<BR/><BR/>And that's the real tragedy here.<BR/><BR/>I'll simply pray to Our Lord Jesus Christ, that He reveals to you the truth, and gives you the discernment to see your Christian brothers and sisters, where you currently, wrongly, see only an enemy.<BR/><BR/>Peace be with you,<BR/><BR/>The CavalierPeter D. Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16226280683101269341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1124604282567377352005-08-21T02:04:00.000-04:002005-08-21T02:04:00.000-04:00Campi said: Romanism is Satan's best accomplishmen...Campi said: Romanism is Satan's best accomplishment on this earth--his greatest masterpiece. <BR/><BR/>Preach it!Bhedrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08091896907803479900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1124556833697321362005-08-20T12:53:00.000-04:002005-08-20T12:53:00.000-04:00Thanks for your comment, Campi.I will note that th...Thanks for your comment, Campi.<BR/><BR/>I will note that they (RCC) say grace underlies all human effort which is in response to that grace. <BR/><BR/>Augustine himself believed we could do meritorious works both for ourselves and others. But he believed this could be done only on the basis of God's grace in Christ.<BR/><BR/>I would agree that this is poor theology and does not properly reflect the biblical teaching concerning rewards to be given for believers' works (e.g., 1 Cor 3:14).Ted M. Gossardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10580691315315271791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1124543940401243182005-08-20T09:19:00.000-04:002005-08-20T09:19:00.000-04:00The entire foundation for salvation in Romanism is...The entire foundation for salvation in Romanism is based upon human achievement rather than divine accomplishment. Could JPII have taught, affirmed, written, preached, etc. a false gospel all of his life, but then believed privately the genuine gospel and be a Christian? No way.<BR/><BR/>You know these verses well, <I>"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed"</I> <B>-Gal. 1:6-8.</B><BR/><BR/>Paul puts this in the context of preaching a false gospel; defecting from Christ; disserting grace; and distorting the true gospel.<BR/><BR/>Galatians, in principial form, is confronting Romanism at its core: grace vs. merit; faith vs. works; Christ alone vs. Christ plus...<BR/><BR/>Romanism is Satan's best accomplishment on this earth--his greatest masterpiece. It is Matthew 7:21-23 personified. It is a false church, preaching a false gospel, led by a false pastor, asserting false authority. That is why throughout church history Romanism has been referred to as An Angel of Light; The Whore of Babylon; and the Pope, as antichrist.<BR/><BR/>Sola Fide,<BR/>SJ Camp<BR/>Matthew 16:24SJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1124543173549550022005-08-20T09:06:00.000-04:002005-08-20T09:06:00.000-04:00I saw a book of Pope John Paul II that stated very...I saw a book of Pope John Paul II that stated very clearly and in language reminiscient of earlier church fathers I would think, of Christ being the one mediator for us to God.<BR/><BR/>I am sorry. I just can't buy the idea that Roman Catholicism is a false Christianity. <BR/><BR/>I studied it for awhile with the thought of possibly considering becoming one. But I am just not there theologically, with their additions in tradition and with reference to the eucharist.<BR/><BR/>We put the worst case scenario on their teaching. Instead we need to listen to them carefully and weigh their interpretations of Scripture. Scripture is from where they get their belief of the authority Christ has given to the church.<BR/><BR/>Oftentimes people talk past each other. Even Calvin acknowledged that there was a true church within the false Roman church.<BR/><BR/>I know Catholics that are vibrant in their faith in Christ and love for all of God's people. On the other hand I know Protestants and fundamentalist/evangelicals of whom I couldn't say that.Ted M. Gossardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10580691315315271791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1124521203255057392005-08-20T03:00:00.000-04:002005-08-20T03:00:00.000-04:00I already know what I believe on the following que...I already know what I believe on the following question, but would like to hear your take on it Campi.<BR/><BR/>Is being Christian and Catholic mutually exclusive? Could PJII have been saved in spite of his beliefs/teachings?<BR/><BR/>Big Chris<BR/><A HREF="http://mrclm.blogspot.com" REL="nofollow">Because I said so</A> blogChris Meirosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05717903860701408008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1124499932666243142005-08-19T21:05:00.000-04:002005-08-19T21:05:00.000-04:00The ecumenical attitude so prevalent today in Evan...The ecumenical attitude so prevalent today in Evangelicalism is extremely dangerous. I commented about this issue on my blog awhile back.<I>("The Fallout From Ecumenical Compromise" & "Ecumenical Danger")</I> The Catholic Church does not want to merely partner with evangelicals to battle the culture war. The general intention of the Catholic Church is to win evangelicals back into the Catholic Church.AuthenticTruthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10067252582009478310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1124468711911499482005-08-19T12:25:00.000-04:002005-08-19T12:25:00.000-04:00Thank you Alexander for your article(s) and though...Thank you Alexander for your article(s) and thoughts about this issue--and the Graham insights, really good! I would recommend others on this blog to check it out.<BR/><BR/>Grace and peace to you,<BR/>SteveSJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1124467134132570102005-08-19T11:58:00.000-04:002005-08-19T11:58:00.000-04:00Hi Steve:I have written about Billy Graham over at...Hi Steve:<BR/><BR/>I have written about Billy Graham over at my blog-- Jordan's View-- in regard to the issue of his uncritical acceptance and promotion of Roman Catholicism. <BR/><BR/>Watching an old crusade telecast recently, I admired Graham's strong and clear gospel preaching. In light of his consistent Protestant message calling people to repentance and to faith in Jesus alone, I couldn't understand why it became the policy of his organization (BGEA) to send converts even to Roman Catholic churches, if that was their background.<BR/><BR/>But it seems Graham went beyond even some others in embracing the gospel of Roman Catholicism, with his uncritical acceptance of the Pope and his downplaying of doctrinal differences.<BR/><BR/>You might want to read my posts Billy Graham's Last Stand or A Soft Gospel of Love.<BR/><BR/>On a related topic, your blog has rattled my thinking on the issue of evangelical co-belligerance. Regarding that issue, I find myself really paying attention to your warnings, yet at the same time, I also fear evangelical retreat or non-engagement with urgent issues of our day. I think it certainly is biblical for individual Christians to try to influence laws and politics to promote a climate in which we can practice our faith and preach the gospel. Christian of various callings can engage our culture with thinking that is sharp and biblical, challenging false ideas that hinder reception of the gospel. The question you have raised in my mind is whether teaming up with those who you may have fundamental differences with theologically is detrimental to that goal--whether this must always lead to compromise.<BR/><BR/>I admit I'm not fully decided about whether the co-belligerence approach is completely wrong, but your warnings seem validated by some aspects of the recent Jutice Sunday II event (http://jordansview.blogspot.com/2005/08/<BR/>scorecard-on-justice-sunday-ii.html.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for being a bold voice and for pointing to Scripture as our authority.<BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/><BR/>AlexAlexander M. Jordanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00770170433201342289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1124462018735564492005-08-19T10:33:00.000-04:002005-08-19T10:33:00.000-04:00As with any bible teacher we need to be faithful B...As with any bible teacher we need to be faithful Bereans examining what one may say by the standard of the Word of God (Acts 17:9-11). That applies to all of us--Colson being no exception to the rule of Faith.<BR/><BR/>Though Colson's worldview on politicals is not biblically rooted; his material may have some merit on other issues. I would take him issue by issue rather than accept all that he's done or reject it all.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your encouraging words.<BR/>SJ Camp<BR/>Col. 1:9-14SJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.com