tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post112354106437076308..comments2024-03-29T05:31:07.363-04:00Comments on CAMPONTHIS: THE BIBLICAL CHURCH THAT GLORIFIES GOD...which one are we known for in America today?SJ Camphttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-80346544539283939642009-05-27T21:13:27.179-04:002009-05-27T21:13:27.179-04:00Campi,
It's been a while, and I am perusing your ...Campi,<br /><br />It's been a while, and I am perusing your latest posts.<br /><br />It seems that the Church on the whole is divided at this time into two camps: <br /><br />Traditional God-fearing Churches<br />Non-traditional God-faking Churches<br /><br />Those who do not understand the uniformity of Scripture, and the eschatology that has been endorsed, taught, and understood for centuries try to "re-invent the wheel" every generation. As believers in Christ, the message has been the same for the past 2 millenia...REPENT, for the KINGDOM is nigh! When we understand that as Christians, we represent the Kingdom through our words, deeds, and actions, the decision to follow God so much easier to define.Tak178https://www.blogger.com/profile/08611092667965227298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-27184100340182319682009-05-27T07:34:40.344-04:002009-05-27T07:34:40.344-04:00I like what Michelle is saying. We can often assum...I like what Michelle is saying. We can often <B>assume</B> we are doing certain things because we are following certain traditions or confirm certain beliefs. We cannot reasonably be in fellowship with one another and love one another when we don't know one another. How can we know one another based on a couple of hours of scheduled time that leaves little opportunity to be in real fellowship? I would agree that we need to abandon the Romaist style of gathering we cling to. Five hundred years since Luther nailed his 95 these to the church door in Wittenberg and we still gather in a similar way to Rome.Arthur Sidohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03848508095612688493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-85264383862119137732009-05-22T22:35:20.350-04:002009-05-22T22:35:20.350-04:00Steve,
Re: my comment "Go love one another"
Just...Steve,<br /><br />Re: my comment "Go love one another"<br /><br />Just wanted to add that if you notice in your list of "Seven highly effective habits of the Biblical Church that glorifies God", I would say that many Bible-believing Churches strive to do just about all the things in that list, but maybe not perfectly.<br /><br />But what is not practiced enough in that list, and should be added to your list because you touch on it later, is the importance of spiritual principles being taught, rather than the cramming of only theology into our heads, since knowledge puffs up. And the preaching of grace rather than legalism. <br /><br />I think there is way too much emphasis on theology for its own sake rather than on Christ Himself, and almost to the exclusion of spirituality, and the life that we have in Christ. <br /><br />Because of a backlash to the Charismatic Movement, I think that may be why true spirituality is being avoided and even frowned upon in the rest of the Churches.<br /><br />In your list of "Seven highly effective habits of the Traditional Church that almost always guarantee church stagnation with very little spiritual impact", it is a very insightful list of problems in the Church that should be taken serious note of. And, specifically, when you mention:<br /><br />1. Go traditional, not spiritual<br />2. Go legalistic, not grace<br /><br />Again, that is where the beginning of the problem lies within the Church. Love is a fruit of the Spirit. So, if we are not taught spiritual principles from spiritual men of God (because it trickles down from the top), it will be reflected in the congregation in their ability to love one another. <br /><br />The traditions of men and legalism will rob any Church of it's ability to love one another. <br /><br />You linked to Ephesians 4:11-16 which really sums it up beautifully.Michele Rayburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05815737949587713100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-58458109017646177512009-05-22T17:39:26.521-04:002009-05-22T17:39:26.521-04:00Hi Steve,
I thought you or someone would point th...Hi Steve,<br /><br />I thought you or someone would point that out, but the point I was making is how obscure it really is from our view. It is certainly not central to anyone's thinking when we ponder why Church attendance is declining. <br /><br />I know that the lack of love in the Church is a heartfelt concern of yours as well, but as I have read over everything written overall, you have to admit that the emphasis to love one another just isn't there. It's the elephant in the room that nobody really wants to talk about. <br /><br />Someone might ask "How can we love one another with only one hour or two a week that we have on Sunday?" <br /><br />And I would say that we should abandon the Roman Catholic style of worship that we have chosen to imitate since around the year 325 A.D. with the reign of the Emperor Constantine, and return to the Biblical style of Christian worship that was demonstrated in the book of Acts. Call me old-fashioned, but I think it sounds more appealing.<br /><br />Many of us don't have fellowship with our own local Church. Paul the Apostle had such love for his brethren that he couldn't wait to be with them. But I don't see fervent love in the Church today. It's more like a friendly club. <br /><br />The words of Keith Green that you so often quote haunt me. I have pondered those words for years, how he sang, "How can we be so dead, when we've been so well fed; Jesus rose from the grave, but you can't even get out of bed!"<br /> <br />Well, I think that I can answer that now, for myself. I think I would say that the reason we're so dead is because we're <I><B>not</B></I> well fed. If we were, we wouldn't be so dead, would we?!<br /><br />So, we have to ask ourselves, "What are we being fed?" But we also have to ask ourselves, "What are we <I>not</I> being fed?"<br /><br />And I think you know it's true. We're not loving one another. How can we? There's virtually no time or place for it. At least not in the 30 years that I've been a Christian. Except of course in my own home. But even that suffers when the Church isn't functioning according to Christ's Two Great Commandments.<br /><br />You mentioned loving our neighbor, taking care of the poor, widows and orphans and being a slave to others, but what about brethren loving brethren within the local Church? <br /><br />Unfortunately, I think that the emphasis of loving one another within the Church is being thought of as a man-centered idea rather than being seen as a result of being truly Christ-centered, and so seems to be almost frowned upon.Michele Rayburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05815737949587713100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-67535842366983838152009-05-22T15:44:53.448-04:002009-05-22T15:44:53.448-04:00Michele3. Go The Great Commission and the Two Grea...<B>Michele</B><BR><I>3. Go The Great Commission and the Two Great Commandments<br />4. Go take care of the poor, the widow and the orphan<br />5. Go preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus as Lord and ourselves as a slave to others.</I><BR><BR>That is what I meant by loving our neighbor: the two great commandments; taking care of the poor, widows and orphans; and being a slave to others.<br /><br />I appreciate you bringing this up though. Thank you.<br /><br />SteveSJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-14268345502126057342009-05-22T15:12:01.934-04:002009-05-22T15:12:01.934-04:00For the Biblical Church that glorifies God...
I d...For the Biblical Church that glorifies God...<br /><br />I didn't read anywhere in the post, comments, or links to "Go love one another".<br /><br />If we do not love one another, as Christ loves us, it is my heartfelt belief that we can't do the rest. We can't "do" all the things that Christ would want us to do as effectively if it is not first founded in love, not just for Christ, but for one another.<br /><br />Sometimes I think that the Church takes for granted that because we are Christians, and that Christ is in us, and that God is love, that of course we love one another. We just assume that we love one another because we're Christians.<br /><br />To me, good preaching is evident when it causes us to love not only Christ more, but when it causes us to love each other more.<br /><br />And then we wonder why Church attendance is shrinking.Michele Rayburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05815737949587713100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-30159803380509252902009-05-22T10:23:20.671-04:002009-05-22T10:23:20.671-04:00ElizabethVery well said. Excellent thoughts. Thank...<B>Elizabeth</B><BR>Very well said. Excellent thoughts. Thank you!SJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-37311057581798346422009-05-21T18:47:00.654-04:002009-05-21T18:47:00.654-04:001. Go simple, not complex - An authentic church di...1. Go simple, not complex - An authentic church displays their priorities by their financial expenses and by the way they want to appear to the world. In short, they are frugal on non-essentials.<br />2. Go theologically emotional, not piously stoic - An authentic church loves God with their minds by exhibiting careful and deep thinking on the great truths of the Bible and its relation to contemporary life & An authentic church loves God with their affections by displaying the full range of emotions which are in proportion with Biblical truths and which glorify God.<br />3. Go 24/7, not one-day/week - An authentic church is much more than a Sunday operation. It extends throughout the week as the leadership provides avenues for the ongoing maturity of the people.<br />4. Go serious, not humorous - An authentic church is very serious about pursuing maximum satisfaction in Jesus Christ and is very serious about killing sin that blocks true affection for Christ.<br />5. Go missions-minded, not inward focused - An authentic church has a global vision of the spread of the Gospel by highlighting God’s triumphant global purposes and by actively sending risk-taking missionaries.<br />6. Go risk-taking, not safe haven - An authentic church will take the necessary safety and financial risks in the spread of the Gospel and thus show the infinite value of Christ to our God-belittling world. <br />7. Go Christ-intoxicated, not earthly-dieted - An authentic church is permeated with the greatness and glory of Jesus Christ in all things by displaying Him and delighting in Him in all their ministries and gatherings.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1123626582796635382005-08-09T18:29:00.000-04:002005-08-09T18:29:00.000-04:00Shawn, Jus playin' as Steve said the temptation is...Shawn, <BR/>Jus playin' as Steve said the temptation is within all of us to use the word of God to puffeth ourself up. In one sense it is just as dangerous as the wave riding trend in the contemporary church. It is Simon the Sorcerers desire to be great. Oh that we all would fall on our faces and only glorify the living God. We are proud critters down here always seeking a vice. Steve's blog is all of this put into practice. This is what I like about his articles. He leaveth not one standing. You know ol Spurgeon kinda had that thing about him. Don't get a big head Campi elsewise this would then be untrue. Yet I knoweth that there remaineth in all of us that desire to be whole and have all this dross burned from us. Longing for the day this wretched tent is dissolved.Bhedrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08091896907803479900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1123624676819847912005-08-09T17:57:00.000-04:002005-08-09T17:57:00.000-04:00Bhedr,I seriously think of this quote applying to ...Bhedr,<BR/><BR/>I seriously think of this quote applying to myself more than other people. <BR/><BR/>Thanks,<BR/>ShawnShawnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06809663608386103910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1123623545037060022005-08-09T17:39:00.000-04:002005-08-09T17:39:00.000-04:00Hey Shawn are you trying to say something to me:-)...Hey Shawn are you trying to say something to me:-)Bhedrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08091896907803479900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1123621966075884512005-08-09T17:12:00.000-04:002005-08-09T17:12:00.000-04:00Steve,You are right about Group 2 #6.Here's a quot...Steve,<BR/><BR/>You are right about Group 2 #6.<BR/><BR/>Here's a quote that reminded me of what you meant.<BR/><BR/><BR/>"A man may be theologically knowing and spiritually ignorant. --Stephen Charnock"Shawnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06809663608386103910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1123619088124284672005-08-09T16:24:00.000-04:002005-08-09T16:24:00.000-04:00You said:We mustn't confuse knowledge with spiritu...You said:<BR/><BR/>We mustn't confuse knowledge with spirituality... and there is that temptation to do so by all of us. The knowledge of God's Word should conform us to further Christlikeness...not puff us up.<BR/><BR/>Amen and God bless youBhedrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08091896907803479900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1123598233527891152005-08-09T10:37:00.000-04:002005-08-09T10:37:00.000-04:00Thanks for a great post! The killer for me over th...Thanks for a great post! The killer for me over the past few years has been the political affiliation. It almost seems like you have to be a White male Republican to be truly following Christ.~Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01819856178499938127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1123594981042735452005-08-09T09:43:00.000-04:002005-08-09T09:43:00.000-04:00Great comments here y'all. Here is some further c...Great comments here y'all. Here is some further clarification:<BR/><BR/><B>Group 1 #7 means:</B> many churches today have adopted a psychological view of sanctification. Sin is now called sickness and disobedience, disease. When therapy replaces discipleship we are left with a church that wants to "feel" their God, but not know their God. In addition, sin is then minimized to a medical or clinical definition. Rather than being an offense to God, we are now simply "sick."<BR/><BR/><B>Group 2 #5 means:</B> pastors/elders confuse their position with servanthood many times. When I served as an associate pastor with John MacArthur at Grace, he would constantly remind us that he had no authority except that which was given in Scripture. John is a true servant of the gospel not wielding his authority as a dictator would, but as a servant-leader would. Elders must rule, but not in a power-control fashion; they serve the church... not lord over it. And they are under-shepherds of Christ. In addition, many elders feel that because os their position, that the thoughts and opinions of the congregation don't matter--they're in charge. That spirit will divide a congregation and not bring healing or growth to one.<BR/><BR/><B>Group 2 #6 means:</B> many churches today are on a "download of information" trend. They just keep pouring more and more doctrine at their people rather than disciple them to be Christlike. We mustn't confuse knowledge with spirituality... and there is that temptation to do so by all of us. The knowledge of God's Word should conform us to further Christlikeness...not puff us up. As my late friend, Keith Green used to say, "how can we be so dead, when we've been so well fed; Jesus rose from the grave, but you can't even get out of bed!"<BR/><BR/>Hope this helps,<BR/>CampiSJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1123591531398134512005-08-09T08:45:00.000-04:002005-08-09T08:45:00.000-04:00ephphatha - you make an excellent point! Setting ...ephphatha - you make an excellent point! Setting up such a strict dichotomy presupposes that (for example, 2:1) "traditional" cannot be "spiritual". The Scripture reminds us that there is value in the traditions of our theological and spiritual forefathers (2 Thes 2.15). I do understand what Steve is getting at I think, however. Jesus often rebuked the Pharisees for their commitment to tradition that trumped their commitment to the revelation of God. (Mark 7.1-13, particularly verse 8)<BR/><BR/>Also, the law does not stand in contradiction to grace, "legalalism" does however!<BR/><BR/>Again, "counting converts" does not have to so strictly separated from "making disciples." We recognize that the spiritual health of a chuch is not determined by its size, of course. However, if we are not growing, reaching our community with the life-transforming gospel, then we are not "making disciples." I once heard a very notable, very reformed scholar speak with seeming pride that his Reformed Baptist Church was so small.<BR/><BR/>Steve, I am still sure what you meant by "Go pastoral/elder ruler, not shepherd/servant leader." Are you suggesting that these are mutually exclusive? That an elder cannot "rule" in service and care? Not quite sure I am following you there.<BR/><BR/>Grace to you!Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01158723529553283136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1123579506578225782005-08-09T05:25:00.000-04:002005-08-09T05:25:00.000-04:00The "Go x, not y" format of these points seem to a...The "Go x, not y" format of these points seem to assume that x and y are mutually exclusive, but it seems to me, that all but one are false dichotomies. The one that says, "Go anthropocentric, not Christocentric" is the only one that strikes me as being a legitimate dichotomy.Sam Harperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15884738370893218595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1123562170640850732005-08-09T00:36:00.000-04:002005-08-09T00:36:00.000-04:00This topic has really been in my thoughts of late....This topic has really been in my thoughts of late. For example, last Sunday night at the church I attend, one of the elders was in the pulpit discussing a church homecoming he had attended in Texas recently. He said that the church had really gone downhill in recent years, and the purpose of the homecoming was to solicit donations to get the church back on its feet. He said that in its glory days, the church was a very healthy church-both numerically and financially. I'm still scratching my head, trying to figure out why the <B><I>spiritual</B></I> health of the church in question was not even mentioned or considered! (Guess it's just not important anymore, in some folks' eyes).<BR/><BR/>Timely post, Steve--thanks, brother.littlegal_66https://www.blogger.com/profile/09424599483109788899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1123552514925773382005-08-08T21:55:00.000-04:002005-08-08T21:55:00.000-04:00Loren said:Starting with 'no compromise' can mean ...Loren said:Starting with 'no compromise' can mean less church growth at an initial, and therefore crucial, stage, and that is the temptation ministries face. But if God really called them to start it, the only acceptable beginning can be no compromise with Him. That way, too, any growth that is achieved will be genuine and stable, even if it's slower. Otherwise one is building on the sand.<BR/><BR/>Elohiym has given you depth brother. I hope others will take notice of Yeshua's work in you.Bhedrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08091896907803479900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1123547328512635632005-08-08T20:28:00.000-04:002005-08-08T20:28:00.000-04:00Very good post, Steve. Success should always be me...Very good post, Steve. <BR/>Success should always be measured by God's glory, not numbers, wealth, or programs.Jeremy Weaverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02552780649310262425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1123545915164251142005-08-08T20:05:00.000-04:002005-08-08T20:05:00.000-04:00I think it is all a question of contentment. Are w...I think it is all a question of contentment. Are we content with what Yeshua did at Calvary or must we try to dress it up and add to it?<BR/><BR/>Add to your list for a sound church:Go contentment with CalvaryBhedrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08091896907803479900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1123545874731007402005-08-08T20:04:00.000-04:002005-08-08T20:04:00.000-04:00Hi Steve,I'm actually disappointed to be the first...Hi Steve,<BR/><BR/>I'm actually disappointed to be the first to make a comment here. I thought there would be a chorus of agreement by now. It makes me wonder just how far gone we may actually be? <BR/><BR/>The other side of your excellent points is that those who have not followed them before now will seldom want to hear about them; and once it's been that way for a while, they'll dread the conflict that will come through 'changing course', (even though that course change would be a correction!)<BR/><BR/>Starting with 'no compromise' can mean less church growth at an initial, and therefore crucial, stage, and that is the temptation ministries face. But if God really called them to start it, the only acceptable beginning can be <EM>no compromise with Him.</EM> That way, too, any growth that is achieved will be genuine and stable, even if it's slower. Otherwise one is building on the sand.<BR/><BR/>Lot's of thoughts, better stop now before I'm carried away. Thanks again for the post.lorenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12913487595726748404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1123545711019336002005-08-08T20:01:00.000-04:002005-08-08T20:01:00.000-04:00Steve, Are you going to give a brief description o...Steve, <BR/>Are you going to give a brief description on each one in each group?<BR/><BR/>Group 1 #7 What do you mean?<BR/>Group 2 #5 What do you mean?<BR/>Group 2 #6 What do you mean?KShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01128894027656496745noreply@blogger.com