tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post112250996283213264..comments2024-03-29T05:31:07.363-04:00Comments on CAMPONTHIS: THE RESPONSIBILITY OF LEADERSHIP...by A.W. TozerSJ Camphttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-11895694935936410542008-07-16T21:39:00.000-04:002008-07-16T21:39:00.000-04:00Incidentily I was listening to a favorite message ...Incidentily I was listening to a favorite message of mine by Tozer in my truck today on the power of true worship. He said as I recall something like this:<BR/><BR/>"I see some of you getting mad at me over this, but I like that see, I like it because if your not making somebody either mad or sad or glad then you might as well pack your bags and go on home."<BR/><BR/>Something like that anyway.<BR/><BR/>Grace upon grace,<BR/><BR/>BrianOnly Lookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16074543462279905793noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1152772034126580762006-07-13T02:27:00.000-04:002006-07-13T02:27:00.000-04:00Hello,I am a musician who has been heavily influen...Hello,<BR/>I am a musician who has been heavily influenced by Keith Green. I would be honored if you would check out my music. All music on my site is free for download.<BR/><BR/>I don't mean to be a pest, so if this message is an annoyance, please delete it and accept my humblest of apologies. I just want to share my music with people who love Jesus.<BR/><BR/>Thanks,<BR/>-Sean <BR/>______________<BR/>www.SeanDietrich.com<BR/>"All my music is free."Sean Dietrichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11800520785487737607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1146488862503905602006-05-01T09:07:00.000-04:002006-05-01T09:07:00.000-04:00Just an update. I put together a 14 page position ...Just an update. I put together a 14 page position paper on the PDC and why it is a mistake for our church to go that way. The last 4 pages of it was a presentation on the 9Marks and the book "The Deliberate Church" as alternatives.<BR/><BR/>I gave it and the PDC book he had given me to my pastor in his office prior to church yesterday. His sermon yesteday talked about rebuilding the "walls" of our church and a big change was coming. <BR/><BR/>I thought I was going to feel disappointed and let down after he rejected my arguments, but in fact, I felt a great relief. One of the key points in the paper I gave him was that God is more interested in His pastor's faithfulness than in how big they can get their churches. I was faithful in bringing this up and it is like a huge burden has been lifted from me. <BR/><BR/>If they institute this thing I will be looking for another church, but I'm okay with that now.<BR/><BR/>In Christ<BR/><BR/>Mike RatliffMike Ratliffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14067841429011899105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1146329255490028982006-04-29T12:47:00.000-04:002006-04-29T12:47:00.000-04:00Steve,This is so needed in our churches today. I c...Steve,<BR/><BR/>This is so needed in our churches today. I continue to see the circle of true, biblical Christians shrink at a rapid rate and it is alarming.<BR/><BR/>I have had to deal with this as well at my own church. Confronting leadership is no small or trivial task and we need to make sure we are on solid biblical ground before doing so.<BR/><BR/>Sadly, many pastors fear their own elder boards or the congretation themselves. We need to encourage them to stand for truth and tell them we are behind them in doing so.Denisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14770822482205703050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1146143511632274252006-04-27T09:11:00.000-04:002006-04-27T09:11:00.000-04:00Although I know this is an old post, I wonder if s...Although I know this is an old post, I wonder if some of the issues of PDL may be raised?<BR/>I am of the opinion that the Purpose Driven Life is merely a compression of the navigator's Discipleship courses (with answers for the lazy!)<BR/>As such it partakes of both the blessings and the cursings of the Navigator's programme (correct spelling for us colonial boys) Blessings: Foundational discipleship materials developing habits that can become integral to a godly lifestyle).<BR/>Cursings: The peril of spiritual pride associated to one who has "lost the plot" and forgotten that the gospel of the grace of God is integral motivational and defining of true godliness.. Titus 2:13.<BR/>I am more concerned that the preaching fare reflected in PDL style churches reflects a shallow doctrinal depth that can be utilised in cultic groups and nominal groups, where problem centred preaching becomes normative. I firmly believe that Churches should be conviction driven rather than purpose driven (purpose driven churches reflected in their preaching seem to devolve into a shallow legalism that is devoid of godliness). <BR/>I hope I don't sound too scathing?! I am commenting by observation. I first met Rick Warren in January 1990, and met his associate pastor who explained to me that the real source of growth in their church was the small group discipleship cells established around Navigator's materials. In many ways the Purpose Driven church materials are merely tidying up administrative issues and bringing discipleship emphases to church administration! I still think the grace of God should be the powerhouse core motivation to EVERYTHING. But this seems to get lost in the Purpose Driven church.Groseys messageshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09256060632754175527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1146143113868305692006-04-27T09:05:00.000-04:002006-04-27T09:05:00.000-04:00Steve, boxcarvibe and Little Gal,I started working...Steve, boxcarvibe and Little Gal,<BR/><BR/>I started working on the paper last night. I have done a great deal of research into the PDC/PDL over the last several weeks. Now I pray that God will guide me in putting together a paper that explains why this approach is "of the world" not of God. <BR/><BR/>I worked on the paper about three hours last night and have only gotton through the faulty exegesis from Warren's book. Now I am working on the faulty methodologies (ie. Purpose orientation on everything rather than Gospel orientation.) I covet all of your prayers in this.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps it is for such as time as this that God placed me and you in the churches we are in.<BR/><BR/>In Christ<BR/><BR/>Mike RatliffMike Ratliffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14067841429011899105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1146083178811968732006-04-26T16:26:00.000-04:002006-04-26T16:26:00.000-04:00After moving from church to church (as we moved fr...After moving from church to church (as we moved from state to state), we have been very blessed to find a church with a wonderful pastor, who not only preaches the Word, but does so humbly. And the really wonderful thing is that I see his example, which he would be quick to point out is Christ's example, of humility and a servant's heart throughout the men of the church. Even though there are a couple of things I don't agree with (no music with drums, for instance, and I have to wear a skirt to every service - I hate that), I can't imagine leaving this church as long as the pastor maintains his high level of integrity and faithfulness to the truths of the Bible. And if we hadn't attended so many different churches through the years, I wouldn't realized how fortunate we are.Janahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05755365059311051601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1146079261940470382006-04-26T15:21:00.000-04:002006-04-26T15:21:00.000-04:00Steve,Thank you for you godly and Berean answer. Y...Steve,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for you godly and Berean answer. Yes, I agree wholeheartedly that it is Christ who grows the church not gimmicks, etc.<BR/><BR/>I am doing research on the Puprose Driven Church. I plan to do exactly what you said in your comment. I am writing a position paper to present to him on why I believe it is a mistake to go this direction. I am a deacon in this church. We don't have elders. I have felt tremendous conviction to be gentle and non-threatening in this. Thanks again for answering my question.<BR/><BR/>In Christ<BR/><BR/>Mike RatliffMike Ratliffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14067841429011899105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1146078798658157192006-04-26T15:13:00.000-04:002006-04-26T15:13:00.000-04:004given: Yes Little Rock, AK. A great church ther...<B>4given:</B> Yes Little Rock, AK. A great church there (The Bible Church of Little Rock) pastored by my dear friend Lance Quinn. If you're in the L.R. area, you need to visit and worship with them sometime. Excellent church!<BR/><BR/><B>littlegal and Mike</B> Great question. Here are a few steps that I hope will be helpful:<BR/><BR/><B>1.</B> You want to be a faithful Berean when it comes to church leadership (Acts 17:9-11). Make sure you have biblical precedence when lovingly asking a pastor to qualify his actions or leadership within the church.<BR/><BR/><B>2.</B> If it is not an issue of doctrinal drift to aberrant or skewed theology away from an essential of the faith and more of a preference issue, then you need to address the pastor still from Scripture, but I would personally ask questions pertaining to the motive behind the pragmatic. In the end, on preference issues where no doctrinal slippage is occurring, then I would submit to their leadership and trust the Lord through prayer for the outcome.<BR/><BR/><B>3.</B> If the pastor is wanting to "grow the church" and isn't satisfied with the size of the congregation, direct him to Acts 2:42ff where Luke records that it was "the Lord who added to the church daily..." Your pastor doesn't want to compete with Christ, Who is the real architect and builder of the church (Matt. 16:18; 1 Cor. 3:5-15; Eph. 2:20) amen?<BR/><BR/><B>4.</B> If your pastor is considering the PDL material as his foundation for this, then again, I would appeal to him to examine biblically what Mr. Warren is really representing in that material and to see if it agrees with or contradicts your current doctrinal statement within the church. <B>Q-</B> is your church government one of a plurality of godly elders; more pastoral led; or even congregation rule? That would determine, in part, how you proceed to voice your concerns.<BR/><BR/><B>5.</B> Lastly, most pastors are fairly fragile when being confronted about their leadership. Knowing that ahead of time, be gentle, loving, humble, submissive to their position, and gracious when approaching him (Heb. 13:17). Reinforce your love for him; let him know that it is not about numbers, but about being faithful with whomever God has given him as an under-shepherd of Christ to be responsible with to care for.<BR/><BR/>You can get people to come to most anything if it is marketed correctly and promoted effectively--but that is not the issue is it. I am certain that no real pastor worth his salt wants to operate outside the scope and authority of God's Word--especially in the area of church growth.<BR/><BR/>Encourage him that he should focus on the depth of obedience within the church; and trust God that he will take care of the breadth of the influence of the church (and the growth as well). Spurgeon had a church of thousands; Watson a church of less than two hundred. In the scope of eternity it doesn't matter... Faithfulness does though.<BR/><BR/>Praying for you... Not an easy answer this.<BR/>Steve<BR/>Acts 2:42ffSJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1146074294512426192006-04-26T13:58:00.000-04:002006-04-26T13:58:00.000-04:00mike ratliff asked: "What do we do when a pastor i...mike ratliff asked: <I>"What do we do when a pastor is attempting to implement some pragmatic, program oriented thing in a church...."</I><BR/><BR/>Steve, I'd be <B>really</B> interested in getting your take on this, as well. I'm well aware of your stance on the issue, but what suggestions do you have for folks who see it occuring in <B>their</B> churches?littlegal_66https://www.blogger.com/profile/09424599483109788899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1146072522554744862006-04-26T13:28:00.000-04:002006-04-26T13:28:00.000-04:00Steve,This is a question about church leadership. ...Steve,<BR/><BR/>This is a question about church leadership. What do we do when a pastor is attempting to impliment some pragmatic, program oriented thing in a church simply because the church isn't big enough to suit him? I am speaking of the Purpose Driven Church model. If we have serious misgivings about this, what is called for?<BR/><BR/>In Christ<BR/><BR/>Mike RatliffMike Ratliffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14067841429011899105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1146063497445069642006-04-26T10:58:00.000-04:002006-04-26T10:58:00.000-04:00Thanks for the post, Steve. Dan's concerns are tr...Thanks for the post, Steve. Dan's concerns are truly legitimate and your response to them was certainly helpful. <BR/>If we had to agree 100% with everyone we read & quoted, we'd...we'd...uh...we'd just be reading the Bible...I guess? (somehow that didn't come out the way I intended...or did it? :o)<BR/>This gives us all the more reason to be discerning in our reading, doesn't it?<BR/><BR/>Regarding leadership...I've always been convicted (haunted, maybe?) by Oswald Sander's quote:<BR/><BR/><B>“No one need aspire to leadership in the work of God who is not prepared to pay a price greater than his contemporaries and colleagues are willing to pay. True leadership always exacts a heavy toll on the whole man, and the more effective the leadership is, the higher the price to be paid.”</B> - <I>Oswald Sanders, Spiritual Leadership</I><BR/><BR/>Thanks for your ministry. Looking forward to our time together in Little Rock!Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05840479818099362754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1146054755415969942006-04-26T08:32:00.000-04:002006-04-26T08:32:00.000-04:00What a fine post. I am convicted that I do have a ...What a fine post. I am convicted that I do have a fear of man, sometimes, more than a fear of our Lord. God has been working on my heart, but it can be so very hard to confront people in the church, when needed. <BR/><BR/>Some weaker vessels are much more bold in their sin, than the stronger vessels in their righteousness.<BR/><BR/>I agree that we need to give the body of Christ what they need, and not what they want. Good words from Tozer.<BR/><BR/>"Tozer had his theological gaffs as we all do." Amen.<BR/>I visited C. J. Mahaney's Covenant Life Church this past Sunday, and it is different. Worshipping God with these brothers and sisters was such a joyful expereince, though my personality, and secondary beliefs, would be less than what they would need to be to join myself with this body.<BR/>However, the heart of their doctrinal beliefs are so solid. What a light this church is for the truth.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1122593848249729412005-07-28T19:37:00.000-04:002005-07-28T19:37:00.000-04:00Amen! may his words examine all of our hearts in o...Amen! may his words examine all of our hearts in order that he may fashion us and burn off our dross. These are such good points. Has anyone ever read his book Worship and Entertainment?<BR/>I also have an article on the spirit of Eros in the church. Has anyone read that?He has good stuff.Bhedrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08091896907803479900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1122586190794609282005-07-28T17:29:00.000-04:002005-07-28T17:29:00.000-04:00I appreciate the comments in this section. I did n...I appreciate the comments in this section. I did not know that about brother Tozer, but Steve comments are also appropriate. One question brother Steve. No disrespect to you or the late Keith Green, but how much Finney-revivalism influence did Keith have. Hopefully you are not referring to some of the pelagianistic beliefs Finney held to? ;-).<BR/><BR/>Pastor Bret Lovitz<BR/>Grace Fellowship<BR/>www.gracefellowshipmh.orgPester Brathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383780745492911780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14012689.post-1122584760406308842005-07-28T17:06:00.000-04:002005-07-28T17:06:00.000-04:00Some very good thoughts here Dan. I fully agree wi...Some very good thoughts here Dan. I fully agree with you... <BR/><BR/>None of us takes "everything" someone teaches, writes, or propagates and places biblical stock in what they represent without questioning their truth claims, do we? That's just being a good Berean (Acts 17:9-11). We must be discerning about what someone teaches and not shy to ask the hard questions. "Eat the meat and throw away the bones..."<BR/><BR/>Every great Bible teacher today has flaws in their theology. All do. Examples: Any conference that would have R.C. Sproul talk about "justification by faith" is going to be tremendously blessed;--you just don't want to have him speak on eschatology. You would want to have John MacArthur speak about the authority and sufficiency of God's Word--no one finer; but you wouldn't want him to speak to the conference on "the daily pastoral shepherding of hurting people"--it's not his wheelhouse. In the same way, you would want to have John Piper speak about "the glory and supremacy of God"; but not on "spiritual gifts." See what I mean?<BR/><BR/>Tozer had his "theological gaffs" as we all do. That doesn't excuse them, but it should give us empathy. However, he was an orthodox man on the essentials and unwavering on sola Scriptura. For that I am very grateful.<BR/><BR/>My dear late friend, Keith Green, and I would "argue" about theology and doctrinal considerations when we'd get together. We loved it. He came from a Finney-revivalist influence; I came from a Calvin-reformed influence. All that I can say is--he knows the truth now :-). But what an uncompromised voice for the gospel and the Lord Keith was in his music. He and I were like Wesley and Whitefield--on the opposite sides of the theological fence on some things, but both, by God's grace, wholeheartedly committed to the work and Word of Christ. As the old saying goes, <I>"it's easier to cool down a fanatic than warm up a corpse."</I> I'll take Keith--with all the flaws--anyday to much of what I see in current evangelicalism by those who even "get it right" theologically; They're not excited about the truth, they're embalmed with it. Rather than the truth making them bold and courageous for the gospel, it has caused them to create a fraternity of "intellectual elitism." Some men have "degrees today" (i.e., ETS) and no heat; the Apostles had heat and no degrees. I'll stay with the Apostles. <BR/><BR/>I'm not pooh-poohing knowledge or education (read a few books every week and hundreds of articles and posts); but I am pooh-poohing academics for academics sake.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your words brother. As Paul said, <I>"till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God; to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ"</I> Eph. 4:13.<BR/><BR/>Grace and peace,<BR/>CampiSJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.com